Mics for recording
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Seafroggys
Silver Member
So you need to get rid of that mindset immediately.
There is no such thing as cymbal mics, or tom mics, or snare mics. There's just mics.
Now granted, there's different types of mics mechanically speaking (dynamic, ribbon, condenser), but for the most part you can use them for whatever, within reason.
Case in point, the EV RE20? Most people would call that a "radio" mic, or a "broadcast" mic, or even a "podcaster" mic......I use it on my bass drum.
My snare mic? A Telefunken M80....which most people would call a "vocal" mic.
Hell, I did a gig a week ago where the sound engineer used SM57's as overhead mics, and it sounded halfway decent.
So what is your "cymbal mic" that you're referring to? And for that matter, why do you have a cymbal mic? Do you mean an overhead mic?
There is no such thing as cymbal mics, or tom mics, or snare mics. There's just mics.
Now granted, there's different types of mics mechanically speaking (dynamic, ribbon, condenser), but for the most part you can use them for whatever, within reason.
Case in point, the EV RE20? Most people would call that a "radio" mic, or a "broadcast" mic, or even a "podcaster" mic......I use it on my bass drum.
My snare mic? A Telefunken M80....which most people would call a "vocal" mic.
Hell, I did a gig a week ago where the sound engineer used SM57's as overhead mics, and it sounded halfway decent.
So what is your "cymbal mic" that you're referring to? And for that matter, why do you have a cymbal mic? Do you mean an overhead mic?
Living Dead Drummer
Platinum Member
I use a pair of Soyuz Fet13's as overheads and a pair of Audix ADX60 Boundary Mics as room mics.
jaykaydrums
Silver Member
i have some lewitt 040s for hi hats and ride mics, lewitt 140 AIR mics as overhead mics, and a lewitt 240 pro as a room mic 
you'd be better off using a large diaphragm condensor mic as a room mic, it captures the frequencies better
you'd be better off using a large diaphragm condensor mic as a room mic, it captures the frequencies better
dwsabianguy
Senior Member
I 100% agree with the sentiment of "there's no such thing as this-type-of-mic." There are definitely specialized mounts, but for the most part a mic is a mic, and if it sounds good, it is good, and if it sounds like ass, try something else.
I've heard of pretty much everything for room mics at some point.
Condensers are wonderfully detailed, but they can be too bright (too much treble/high frequency content) if you have loud/bright cymbals or if you have a very bright room. But it's pretty much impossible to beat a U47 directly in front of the kit.
One of my friends told me Brendan O'Brien used an XY pair of SM57s, but in all fairness, this was Henson Studio B, with Vinnie Colaiuta on drums.
The engineer at Manifold Recording I worked for used a pair of Sanken CO-100Ks in that room, and those were unbelievable. But they'll also pick up every bit of rattle in a standard practice space-type room.
I use a pair of AEA R84s because the ribbons roll off a lot of cymbal top end that I dislike, and I really like the sense of size from the big ribbon sound. Through the AEA RPQ2 mic pre, they've become the go-to do-all stereo pair in my studio. Biggest acoustic guitar sound you've ever heard.
Honestly, just take whatever you have and put them up in the farthest corners from your drum set, then hard pan them in your DAW. It's amazing.
I've heard of pretty much everything for room mics at some point.
Condensers are wonderfully detailed, but they can be too bright (too much treble/high frequency content) if you have loud/bright cymbals or if you have a very bright room. But it's pretty much impossible to beat a U47 directly in front of the kit.
One of my friends told me Brendan O'Brien used an XY pair of SM57s, but in all fairness, this was Henson Studio B, with Vinnie Colaiuta on drums.
The engineer at Manifold Recording I worked for used a pair of Sanken CO-100Ks in that room, and those were unbelievable. But they'll also pick up every bit of rattle in a standard practice space-type room.
I use a pair of AEA R84s because the ribbons roll off a lot of cymbal top end that I dislike, and I really like the sense of size from the big ribbon sound. Through the AEA RPQ2 mic pre, they've become the go-to do-all stereo pair in my studio. Biggest acoustic guitar sound you've ever heard.
Honestly, just take whatever you have and put them up in the farthest corners from your drum set, then hard pan them in your DAW. It's amazing.
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Chris Whitten
Platinum Member
I think it confuses people if you start deconstructing studio standards. Of course there ARE mics that are best suited to certain things.
Senn 421 is a standard tom mic. You wouldn't see anyone using it as a hi-hat mic or an overhead mic. Small or large condenser mics are typically used for hi-hats and overheads. You wouldn't use either inside a bass drum. There are cheap, do-it-all mics that you can use on every part of the kit however, like a Shure 57.
And so on.
I am confused by the original question. Does the OP mean - can I forget using room mics? Or do they mean - can I use a typical overhead mic as a room mic? The answer to both is yes. If you are going to use a room mic your room needs to sound at least decent, which many home studio rooms don't. I often don't use a room mic. Overhead mics pickup a picture of the whole kit and a little of the room sound, which is often enough for me.
Senn 421 is a standard tom mic. You wouldn't see anyone using it as a hi-hat mic or an overhead mic. Small or large condenser mics are typically used for hi-hats and overheads. You wouldn't use either inside a bass drum. There are cheap, do-it-all mics that you can use on every part of the kit however, like a Shure 57.
And so on.
I am confused by the original question. Does the OP mean - can I forget using room mics? Or do they mean - can I use a typical overhead mic as a room mic? The answer to both is yes. If you are going to use a room mic your room needs to sound at least decent, which many home studio rooms don't. I often don't use a room mic. Overhead mics pickup a picture of the whole kit and a little of the room sound, which is often enough for me.
Yes. Can I use an overhead mic - Behringer C - 2 - for a room mic?
Chris Whitten
Platinum Member
Yes.
What are you using for overheads? I find that should be a priority. Don't sacrifice your overhead sound for room mics, they are icing on the cake. I often use a large condenser mic for room. You can use a 57, or a cheap ribbon.
What are you using for overheads? I find that should be a priority. Don't sacrifice your overhead sound for room mics, they are icing on the cake. I often use a large condenser mic for room. You can use a 57, or a cheap ribbon.
Suburbankidz
Well-known Member
Following
John B
Junior Member
Yes, but microphone manufacturers have jumped on the marketing bandwagon of describing use specific mics to further confuse those that are new to recording. Earthworks now advertises a "Cymbal Microphone". There's probably 40 different bass drum microphones one can choose from and of course one can buy "drum miking kits" with advertised use specific mics. To me, just the idea of these drum miking kits/bundles just further serves to confuse those new to drum recording in the sense that it leads to the belief that one needs to plaster the drumset with microphones to record.
Not disagreeing with you at all though. Some mics are better suited to certain to certain tasks, but I doubt that I'd ever spring for a "tom-tom" mic or a "bass-drum" mic.
Crash_thrash
Member
At present we use Line Audio small diaphragm condensers as overheads. They are cheap, light, well made and veeery flat so the result can be easily eq'd. We used them to record drums as overheads, piano, violin, guitars and a choir.
Another nice solution and easily available, are the UA Standard series modeling microphones which come with a plugin that models certain microphones if you do not want to fiddle too much with eq.
If you want to mimick a microphone's certain character you can check the diagrams on AudioTestKitchen , compare and eq your microphone to behave close to your target microphone.
There is no such thing as snare/tom/cymbal mics as @Seafroggys well stated.
If you read the stories about the "golden era" (60's 70's) of the production studios you will find out that they were using whatever they had in hand. And since there were only a few manufacturers making microphones, making a few types of microphones, you will read the same names and types over and over.
Indeed there are mics that have a "certain tuning" but nowadays in the age of the DAW and the home studios, these microphones are for commercial studios that they sometimes need a certain result without fiddling (say waste time) with much eq experimentation and because musicians tend to listen with their eyes (expensive=better), so commercial studios need to provide a certain "mojo" to sell.
For a home studio any microphone is a good microphone, as soon as you know your space (which frequencies amplifies, flatters etc.) you have studied the proper recording techniques and you know your eq and compressor plugins.
Personally the only reason to buy a certain mic today is sturdiness. I made recordings with cheap AKG P series microphones that were quite there with recordings of way more expensive microphones. With the P's i just payed a bit more attention to the final eq. The caveat, the chinese made AKG's failed me after a couple recordings and certain mistreatment.
As a rule of thumb for overheads, above cymbals microphones -not dedicated for cymbals-, we use condenser microphones which are sensitive enough to catch the details and dynamic microphones close to the bigger drums -they can withstand the sound pressure, even though today you can find condensers that they can do the same-. But that is not a dogma. You can combine whatever you want if you are satisfied with the result.
All the microphone hype is mostly marketing, "listening with the eyes" and some percentage convenience to reach a specific target easilly -but at a 4 or 5 digit cost-. Choose your mics considering their Frequency response, SNR ratio, their sensitivity and frequency of use, serviceaability if you want to keep them for years to come and not because some maker promotes a microphone for a "certain use". Even the Behringer C2 can record well at many positions and instruments if you know how to use it -but it may not last long-. Just learn to listen with your ears and use the tools you have (room/instruments/DAW/Plugins/outboard equipment if any, etc).
( Off the record for more than a year now i use 20euro Stagg SDM 70s with their insignias erased -in the guitar world they call it "distressed look"- as tom microphones. They look identical to the SM 57's sans the shure name and nobody noticed the difference )
Another nice solution and easily available, are the UA Standard series modeling microphones which come with a plugin that models certain microphones if you do not want to fiddle too much with eq.
If you want to mimick a microphone's certain character you can check the diagrams on AudioTestKitchen , compare and eq your microphone to behave close to your target microphone.
There is no such thing as snare/tom/cymbal mics as @Seafroggys well stated.
If you read the stories about the "golden era" (60's 70's) of the production studios you will find out that they were using whatever they had in hand. And since there were only a few manufacturers making microphones, making a few types of microphones, you will read the same names and types over and over.
Indeed there are mics that have a "certain tuning" but nowadays in the age of the DAW and the home studios, these microphones are for commercial studios that they sometimes need a certain result without fiddling (say waste time) with much eq experimentation and because musicians tend to listen with their eyes (expensive=better), so commercial studios need to provide a certain "mojo" to sell.
For a home studio any microphone is a good microphone, as soon as you know your space (which frequencies amplifies, flatters etc.) you have studied the proper recording techniques and you know your eq and compressor plugins.
Personally the only reason to buy a certain mic today is sturdiness. I made recordings with cheap AKG P series microphones that were quite there with recordings of way more expensive microphones. With the P's i just payed a bit more attention to the final eq. The caveat, the chinese made AKG's failed me after a couple recordings and certain mistreatment.
As a rule of thumb for overheads, above cymbals microphones -not dedicated for cymbals-, we use condenser microphones which are sensitive enough to catch the details and dynamic microphones close to the bigger drums -they can withstand the sound pressure, even though today you can find condensers that they can do the same-. But that is not a dogma. You can combine whatever you want if you are satisfied with the result.
All the microphone hype is mostly marketing, "listening with the eyes" and some percentage convenience to reach a specific target easilly -but at a 4 or 5 digit cost-. Choose your mics considering their Frequency response, SNR ratio, their sensitivity and frequency of use, serviceaability if you want to keep them for years to come and not because some maker promotes a microphone for a "certain use". Even the Behringer C2 can record well at many positions and instruments if you know how to use it -but it may not last long-. Just learn to listen with your ears and use the tools you have (room/instruments/DAW/Plugins/outboard equipment if any, etc).
( Off the record for more than a year now i use 20euro Stagg SDM 70s with their insignias erased -in the guitar world they call it "distressed look"- as tom microphones. They look identical to the SM 57's sans the shure name and nobody noticed the difference
)
dwsabianguy
Senior Member
MD421 makes a fantastic kick mic even if it's not a normal first call item. The Beta 91 has the same SDC capsule as the Beta 98, and Audio-Technica have made a few kick-specific mics like the AE2500 which have an SDC capsule right next to a large diaphragm dynamic capsule. I worked a session with Keith Carlock that saw us putting a cardioid Earthworks on the batter side of his bass drum, and it's still one of my favorite recordings of his kit.
Blood Sugar Sex Magik is a U47fet inside the kick, with the front head off.
And one of the best kick sounds I heard in college was an AT4047, a large diaphragm condenser, inside the kick, pointed away from the batter head, at the inside of the front head. Outrageously fat and punchy.
Though yes, normally, condensers are expensive and potentially delicate, the rules aren't hard-set and steadfast, though you can potentially run the risk of killing a capsule with plosives. These happen strongest at a front head port.
Apologies for the info dump. I've just seen a lot of unusual setups, and heard them do really cool things.
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John B
Junior Member
I've heard that the only reason the 421 got used on toms is because it didn't sound particularly good on anything else. I had a pair and tend to agree. As far as toms go, the 421s are kind of wacky placement wise. Never used one on a bass drum though. And that integrated mic clip thing...yuk.
dwsabianguy
Senior Member
Yeah the long mic body can be tough to fit into tight spaces. I've put some low-strength Loctite on my 421 clips and they work fine.
421 is great on guitar and bass cabs (STP's Core is a 421 on an SVT/8x10 for the bass sound, and Dream Theater's Six Degrees is a 421 and a 57 for the guitar sound) and I like my older 421s on horns and aggressive vocals.
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Chris Whitten
Platinum Member
Fet 47 is pretty standard sitting outside the kick, not inside unless you have no front head. 421's were very common kick mics in the 80's, but the bass drum sound was very different back then. Not so low/fat and very clicky.
Seafroggys
Silver Member
Holy crap, I've also used my AT4047 as a bass drum mic at times! Never over the porthole, usually a couple inches off the center of the head, but it sounded wonderful. Its great.
I love watching interviews with old classic engineers and they go "yeah, I used a U67 to close mic the snare and toms on that album" like its no big deal.
Even though it wasn't a "real" MD421 per se, on the musical I'm currently mixing, for my bass amp sim, I did use a virtual 421 for the cab mic on some of the songs because it ended up sounding the best. I personally don't own any, and don't plan to (when I eventually get to the point of miking my toms, my plan is to use M201's instead).
Chris Whitten
Platinum Member
I strongly disagree.
There are things that just work. It's the same argument that you can play metal on a bop kit, and jazz on a double 24" kick kit with power toms.
If you are an absolute genius you might make it work, but for us mere mortals it pays to follow standards.
In the 60's they used two or three mics around the kit. There have always been hundreds of mic choices, from ribbons to dynamics to tube.
Many of the best condensers and ribbons were designed and sold in the 1940's and 50's.
I don't know about the USA, but the leading studios in London (Abbey Road and Air) employed their own in house engineers. People like Ken Scott, Glyn Johns, Alan Parsons and Geoff Emerick recorded the biggest hits of the late 60's and 70's and also the records regarded as audio benchmarks. So the mic choices they made were copied by everyone else.
I think 99% of the recording sessions I've done have used a 57 on snare and 421's on toms. There ARE other equally good mics, but people don't need to reinvent the wheel.
I once did a session where me and the engineer set up the drums, mic'ed them and got the drum sound 99% ready. When the producer arrived he flew into a rage and demanded we change every mic on the kit. Worst recorded drum sound I've ever had!
dwsabianguy
Senior Member
That Jeff Porcaro instructional video... Bill Schnee put Telefunken 251s on Jeff's toms. All four!
Chris Whitten
Platinum Member
A lot of amazing drum recordings have used U87's on toms and Km84 on snare.
Unfortunately as these mics have increased in value, studios are more reluctant to let them be used to close mic drums in case they get smacked by a drum stick. With so many excellent modern mics (plus samples) it is less required to have thousands of dollars of mics around the kit.
Vintage Old School
Gold Member
With over two decades of sound location recording experience for film and video I can assure you the subtle differences in microphones has nothing to do with marketing hype. Understanding the coloration, pick up patterns, Signal to Noise Ratio, its uniqueness, etc all contribute to how a microphone should perform in your personal recording location based on what you are trying to record. The characteristics of your room and your instrument may determine your exact selection of microphones.
I have a small recording room that is not soundproof, but it is acoustically treated. Over the years I have come to know which microphones work well on my drum kit and cymbals. Next to the room and microphone selection, placement is everything.
As for the OP's inquiry you need to experiment with what you have, but if you purchase or rent more microphones do your homework. The most neutral overhead mics I have used are a pair of Schoeps cmc641. No coloration. Pristine audio reproduction. The most natural sounding mics I have ever used for recording. Their only weakness is they are susceptible to humidity and can "motorboat." They are ideal in a climate controlled environment but not in a humid environment.
I also will use an AEA R88MK2 Stereo Ribbon microphone on occasion as a single overhead microphone.
For room microphones I typically use a Soyuz 023 Bomblet large-diaphragm condenser for near field in front of the kick drum, a pair of Stager SR-2N Ribbon microphones and a Royer R-10 Ribbon microphone for a high microphone placed in the far top corner of the room.
Just experiment with what your budget will allow. You can always borrow or rent a mic to see how it sounds in your room before you purchase. Trust your ears for what you like because over time you will develop your own preference in specific microphones and their coloration that you use.