Why do toms sound higher pitched behind the kit?

I mostly play (classic) rock, pop, funk, some modern songs.
I'm using 12" and 13" toms on my home studio kit vs 10" and 12" on my gig kit.
While playing, I always find the 10" sounds too high pitched and I prefer a 13".
I had a gig yesterday and checked some videos and the toms sound fine, there's nothing wrong with the 10".

So as in the title Or is it just me?

I don’t know the science behind it but when a race car goes past you at full throttle the pitch will always bend down as it passes you and gets further away.

Same for drums, they sound a bit lower at a distance. At least I think it’s the same phenomenon at play here.

I’m pretty sure I’ve heard this described somewhere in detail but the only thing that springs to mind is one of Akira Jimbo’s instructional video, where he describes tuning a bit higher than you like your drums to sound, to compensate for the drop in pitch.

Duck Tape said:

I don’t know the science behind it but when a race car goes past you at full throttle the pitch will always bend down as it passes you and gets further away.

Same for drums, they sound a bit lower at a distance.

I’m pretty sure I’ve heard this described in detail but the only thing that springs to mind is one of Akira Jimbo’s instructional video, where he describes tuning a bit higher than you like your drums to sound.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I remember from school that had something to do with sound waves being compressed when something approaches you (the freq goes up) and they expand when it moves from you (the freq goes down).
So the sound waves start expanding when they 'leave' the kit and sound lower at more distance?
That would make sense, right?

eric_B said:

Yeah, I remember from school that had something to do with sound waves being compressed when something approaches you (the freq goes up) and they expand when it moves from you (the freq goes down).
So the sound waves start expanding when they 'leave' the kit and sound lower at more distance?
That would make sense, right?

Click to expand...

You’re describing the Doppler effect, but that’s not what’s going on here. The Doppler effect requires the distance between you and the source of the sound to rapidly change, so your perception of the pitch goes up as the source gets nearer to you and it goes down as it gets farther away from you.

As for the effect you’re hearing with the drums, that’s probably because being close to the drums lets you hear all of the overtones that tend to get lost the further you are from the kit—especially when there are other instruments to help cover up the overtones. And overtones tend to have a lot of higher frequencies, so that’s what you’re hearing behind the kit.

I agree - not the Doppler effect, unless the kit is moving

The harmonics, the ringiness if you like, dies away the further from the kit you listen from.

Also, the drummer tends to hear the batter head, whilst the audience tends to hear the reso as well, so that can alter the perception from different listening positions.

Huw Owens said:

Also, the drummer tends to hear the batter head, whilst the audience tends to hear the reso as well, so that can alter the perception from different listening positions.

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Basically this, you're primarily hearing the batter head. Also something to consider when mic'ing a drum kit especially in the studio where you can blend in a room mic sound.

What makes the tom sound higher behind the kit isn't necessarily the fundamental pitch of the drum - you're just hearing a lot more of the higher frequencies.

High frequencies have shorter wavelengths, which are more directional, more easily absorbed, and tend not to travel as far as lower, longer wavelengths. There's a reason whales communicate over huge distances with very low frequencies.

So, the pitch of the drum is not really lower, but the frequencies that the audience is hearing tend to be stripped of the higher ones you can hear from the kit.

Far Be It From Me to quote Sound Engineering theories, but I can relay a small story. I have a PDP Concept Maple Kit, a Cowbell, a Jam Block, and lots of Cymbals. The other day I had my 4 Grandkids at my house : 9, 8, 7, and 4.5 in ages. 3 Girls and 1 boy;. When they were growing and visiting us (the wife and I , Mimi & Poppi) once they were exposed to my Drum kit in the Finished basement (My Mancave, if you will), they all loved to play my drums!! So, the visit on Saturday Included "Poppi.....Can We Play The Drums"? Of course they can. When the boy at 8 sat on the Throne, he pounded away ... Man, I said that was Loud. I said to myself...That's How Loud they are ?? Then when the 4 1/2 year old Girlie sat there , she hit my 14 X6.5 Snare so loud and Crashed the Cymbals LOUD too. I said the same thing!! I have never really recorded anything of my Playing which is just Playing along to my Music with my Stereo System. When they pounded the Toms, I was actually Impressed by the sound yielded!! I guess all my Tuning Efforts were pretty good!! FWIW, the 7 YO and the 4 1/2 YO girls are sisters. The younger girl attends the same Pre-School that the 7 yo did. The scjholl would have a percussionist come every 2 months or so, bring Buckets and Bongos for the kids to play on. From being with me, they both Knew how do do some drumming!! In fact, when the 7 year old , 5 then "Graduated" for Pre-School, during one of the last sessions with Drummer Dave, he commented to her Mother that she should take up drumming - she knew and liked it more than the others in the class......Made Me Proud to be her Poppi!!

Ive played my fair share of gigs with just a kick mic and for these situation my rule of thumb is tune the toms higher than you might based on the sound behind the kit. For me and my kit overtone rich and slightly high translates well in a any medium sized room ( beyond cafe) once the audience is in. Converse is true if there are an abundance of close mics, slightly lower than my touch-taste generally sounds best. I leave the snare alone because snares always cut, although I can see that one of those dialatune drums would be good - tune for the room quickly with less risk…..

"Make em sound like a Car wreck"..




jda/joe
horn was audience participation fella me ala whacka la toms

Duck Tape said:

I don’t know the science behind it but when a race car goes past you at full throttle the pitch will always bend down as it passes you and gets further away.

Same for drums, they sound a bit lower at a distance. At least I think it’s the same phenomenon at play here.

I’m pretty sure I’ve heard this described somewhere in detail but the only thing that springs to mind is one of Akira Jimbo’s instructional video, where he describes tuning a bit higher than you like your drums to sound, to compensate for the drop in pitch.

Click to expand...

Doppler effect on that point.

So, assuming that microphones hear what our ears do (and I wouldn't assume that, just sayin', for the sake of the question here), they'd pick up the overtones that would get lost to someone's ears 20+ feet away from the stage, eh? And close mics would accentuate lows due to proximity effect, sorta canceling (not really, but y'know what I mean) those up-close highs...?

Drums are weird. Sound (reinforcement) is weird.

Rattlin' Bones said:

Doppler effect on that point.

Click to expand...

The Doppler Effect is not what makes drums sound lower when further away, though. The Doppler Effect only applies to moving objects. The frequency is higher when moving toward you and lower when moving away, so it makes sense people might think it was involved, but the Doppler shift is caused by sound (or light) waves being compressed on approach and spreading when the objects are moving apart. Doesn't effect stationary objects at all.

So, I guess if you were playing on a float in a parade it might apply.

Well the earth is spinning at 1038 mph so there’s that

Duck Tape said:

Well the earth is spinning at 1038 mph so there’s that

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And now this Monty Python classic is whirling around in my brain....

Stroman said:

The Doppler Effect is not what makes drums sound lower when further away, though. The Doppler Effect only applies to moving objects. The frequency is higher when moving toward you and lower when moving away, so it makes sense people might think it was involved, but the Doppler shift is caused by sound (or light) waves being compressed on approach and spreading when the objects are moving apart. Doesn't effect stationary objects at all.

So, I guess if you were playing on a float in a parade it might apply.

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I know.

Check out what I was responding to - when a race car goes past you at full throttle the pitch will always bend down as it passes you and gets further away.

I first learned about Doppler and application to astronomy sitting in a UCLA lecture hall 1974. Fascinating.

But yeah a drum don't move so no Drum Dop effect lol

but the anti- Gretsch crowd along with the John Good Wood whisper society still want lower tones amirite

oh and add in the foam ringed heads the drum drops whatever those things are drum globules applied to heads are still pushing forward and for gosh sakes don't take cutting holes in heads away from us right.
I mean tone projection alone is bad right?

- signed live un mic'ed drummer..

new band name. "The Tone Throws"

jda said:

...cutting holes in heads...

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I wonder how cutting the batter heads would make the toms sound from behind the kit

catch part of the tom rim and it'll sting all the same

Rattlin' Bones said:

I know.

Check out what I was responding to - when a race car goes past you at full throttle the pitch will always bend down as it passes you and gets further away.

I first learned about Doppler and application to astronomy sitting in a UCLA lecture hall 1974. Fascinating.

But yeah a drum don't move so no Drum Dop effect lol

Click to expand...

Yeah, I wasn't correcting you. I was clarifying something, though.

The post you quoted described the Doppler Effect without naming it, and goes on to say he thinks it's the same effect that causes drums to sound lower further away. You named the effect he described for moving objects, but you didn't really say that it wasn't what was happening with the drums.

I went on to clarify that is *not* what happens with drums.