Mics for recording

dwsabianguy said:
Yeah the long mic body can be tough to fit into tight spaces. I've put some low-strength Loctite on my 421 clips and they work fine.

421 is great on guitar and bass cabs (STP's Core is a 421 on an SVT/8x10 for the bass sound, and Dream Theater's Six Degrees is a 421 and a 57 for the guitar sound) and I like my older 421s on horns and aggressive vocals.
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I think my guitar player has one laying around. Maybe I'll give it a whirl again. I'm a pretty dyed in the wool Beyer mic guy. But now that Beyer was bought by a venture capital group. who knows what's going to happen with them.
 
Vintage Old School said:
With over two decades of sound location recording experience for film and video I can assure you the subtle differences in microphones has nothing to do with marketing hype. Understanding the coloration, pick up patterns, Signal to Noise Ratio, its uniqueness, etc all contribute to how a microphone should perform in your personal recording location based on what you are trying to record. The characteristics of your room and your instrument may determine your exact selection of microphones.

I have a small recording room that is not soundproof, but it is acoustically treated. Over the years I have come to know which microphones work well on my drum kit and cymbals. Next to the room and microphone selection, placement is everything.

As for the OP's inquiry you need to experiment with what you have, but if you purchase or rent more microphones do your homework. The most neutral overhead mics I have used are a pair of Schoeps cmc641. No coloration. Pristine audio reproduction. The most natural sounding mics I have ever used for recording. Their only weakness is they are susceptible to humidity and can "motorboat." They are ideal in a climate controlled environment but not in a humid environment.

I also will use an AEA R88MK2 Stereo Ribbon microphone on occasion as a single overhead microphone.

For room microphones I typically use a Soyuz 023 Bomblet large-diaphragm condenser for near field in front of the kick drum, a pair of Stager SR-2N Ribbon microphones and a Royer R-10 Ribbon microphone for a high microphone placed in the far top corner of the room.

Just experiment with what your budget will allow. You can always borrow or rent a mic to see how it sounds in your room before you purchase. Trust your ears for what you like because over time you will develop your own preference in specific microphones and their coloration that you use.
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Do you like your R88? I've been thinking about getting one. This week I've been playing around with a Beyer M160/M130 in MS config over the drums. Interesting sounds. The John Cuniberti single mic stuff that's done with a single AEA R88 is sort of amazing though.
Check this out...One AEA R88...although the 1/2" two track ATR-102...we tape guys like 1/4" two track!

 
John B said:
Do you like your R88? I've been thinking about getting one. This week I've been playing around with a Beyer M160/M130 in MS config over the drums. Interesting sounds. The John Cuniberti single mic stuff that's done with a single AEA R88 is sort of amazing though.
Check this out...One AEA R88...although the 1/2" two track ATR-102...we tape guys like 1/4" two track!

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Yes I like it! I've grown partial to Ribbon microphones the more I record with them. I was impressed with the R88 sound that Vance Powell gets at Sputnik Sound in Nashville. I like the simplicity of a well placed single overhead stereo mic and that's where the R88 excels. But if I want totally neutral sound I go with the Schoeps cmc641s.
 
Vintage Old School said:
Yes I like it! I've grown partial to Ribbon microphones the more I record with them. I was impressed with the R88 sound that Vance Powell gets at Sputnik Sound in Nashville. I like the simplicity of a well placed single overhead stereo mic and that's where the R88 excels. But if I want totally neutral sound I go with the Schoeps cmc641s.
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Any problems with hum from the R88? I've had some RCAs and and there was a hum when oriented on a north/south axis in my room. AEA addresses that issue and says to "rotate" the mic but...hard to rotate my entire setup if you know what I mean.
 
This is a classic case of "can you" and "should you" which may be totally different.

If you have an unlimited supply and variety of mics and unlimited time, by all means try things, record, listen and adjust. But as @Chris Whitten has mentioned, there are classic industry standards which stack the deck in favor of getting a very manageable and usable drum sound from the sources they have classically been paired with like the 57 and snares etc.

IMHO if someone is starting a home studio (built mine out 2-3 years ago) and starting from scratch, sticking with mainstream tried and true mic/source combos makes sense from getting a baseline solid starting point sonically but also financially you know you are getting something with good utility and most likely ease of resale if you want to move on.

In my personal experience, when someone I am working with asks "what are you using on the snare top?" I feel very comfortable saying "SM57" which is probably what they are expecting and does not require me to convince them that a potentially obscure choice is "better". So there is that as well, some people EXPECT me to be using the cliche industry standards......and their expectations is based on decades of quality results.
 
Although the discussion about more expensive/industry standard mics is interesting, I think it will be out of the budget of the OP, as he mentioned the Behringer C2 - at EUR 31 a pair. Still a nice entry to the condensor mic world.
 
eric_B said:
Although the discussion about more expensive/industry standard mics is interesting, I think it will be out of the budget of the OP, as he mentioned the Behringer C2 - at EUR 31 a pair. Still a nice entry to the condensor mic world.
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You're absolutely right.
The Line Audio CM4 mics are outstanding and are $135 each. Built by a guy in Sweden. Huge cult following on those mics.
 
Chris Whitten said:
I strongly disagree.
There are things that just work. It's the same argument that you can play metal on a bop kit, and jazz on a double 24" kick kit with power toms.
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You are comparing different things. A drum and a microphone (condenser for the instance) may both use membranes to transfer / produce the sound but the sizes (mass) are not the same. A drum shell you tune to perform certain frequencies and according to its volume and rigideness provides the amplification. It is not the same with the microphone capsule. Frankly with some knowledge and the appropriate plugins you can make a bop kit (maybe not a bop kit but one with a 20" kick) sound like a mega 24"kick-kit in the studio. You may not fool an experienced sound engineer but it will be easy to persuade a casual listener. Live situations is another matter.

Chris Whitten said:
In the 60's they used two or three mics around the kit. There have always been hundreds of mic choices, from ribbons to dynamics to tube
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No they were not so many choices as they are now. They had primarily the Neumanns the Telefunkens the Shures some Sennheisers and RCA's as ribbons and in some instances AEAs. It was either dynamics or condensers with vaccum valve preamplification. Mostly same construction as microphones with the electronic circuitry differentiating them. The first microphone with discrete semiconductor preamp introduced on 1965 with a small condenser and the first Neumann U87 was manufactured on 1967. Fet transistor microphones started widely to be used by the early 70's. Today there are so many different designs and manufacturers that you may get lost even naming them. Sadly in most cases they are trying to replicate the sound of the microphones the studios were using during the 60's and the 70's.

Chris Whitten said:
the leading studios in London (Abbey Road and Air) employed their own in house engineers. People like Ken Scott, Glyn Johns, Alan Parsons and Geoff Emerick recorded the biggest hits of the late 60's and 70's
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Well said. All the above were engineers and repairmen too. They knew about electronics and they were modding their gear as they wanted/needed. The gear was built with looser tolerances than they are built today and everything had to be fine-tuned or even re-done. Since you have access to studios and a lot of experience, you already know that not all old U87's sound the same, not all 47's sound the same, not all 84's sound the same. Even the capsules were not been made the same. Different batches and different manufacture dates, produced different results. That's why all of these engineers had their "trusty" microphones. In fact only after the 80's we had a great standardization of the equipment. What made the difference with the recordings before, was that the above names were engineers with a good knowledge of the gear and trained ear, worked their carrier from the bottom-up and with the experience gathered, they could work magic with whatever they had in hand. Today we do not need that deep knowledge because all U87s are built equal with tight tolerances and any sound modifications are done in the computer via plugins. But the trained ear is still needed. Having a super-expensive big brand ELA 251 microphone will not give u a good result -not even acceptable- if u don't know how to fit the recorded sound in the mix.

Chris Whitten said:
I think 99% of the recording sessions I've done have used a 57 on snare and 421's on toms. There ARE other equally good mics, but people don't need to reinvent the wheel.
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I agree with the above. A single 57 -which is not an expensive microphone- can work magic. In fact the 57 is a flawed microphone and that's why works good on snares. The sens are also good mics for the toms and had few of them but i swapped them with cheaper, mod-friendly ones and sold the 421s about a year ago.

Chris Whitten said:
I once did a session where me and the engineer set up the drums, mic'ed them and got the drum sound 99% ready. When the producer arrived he flew into a rage and demanded we change every mic on the kit. Worst recorded drum sound I've ever had!
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I believe you are making my point. Initialy you and your engineer did the setup with gear you knew and you were confident about the result. The gear change caused a disaster! Not because the gear was inapropriate but because it wasn't what your engineer and you were used and set to work with. It was inappropriate for you.

I know a well established and awarded Swedish engineer whom if you present an SM 57 for the snare, he will laugh at u. He records all his snares with KM 184s even though most others hate them because they are too sensitive and with peaks at high frequencies that makes the raw sound shrill. But he recorded amazing symphonic metal drums with those and numerous extereme metal albums with 184s. He is a magician in eq'ing!

My point here is that if someone begins now he/she shall not seek for THAT sound on the gear. That's marketing hype which tries to trigger gear sales by triggering nostalgia. THAT SOUND goes with the engineer's Name -name as experience and technical ability-. Johns, Parsons, Brown, Scott, Emerick, Sylvia Massy and many more, worked from the ground-up, gained experience and miles on their trusty gear and they delivered. Someone starting now on a studio if he/she wants a good result he can achieve it with even low or mid-priced chinese gear. Frankly i consider them better than many of the equipment of the 70s. But to achieve a good sound he/she has to train himself to what he has in hand. In fact on the late 70s, early 80's in Greece, were i live, numerous rock albums have been recorded on a Columbia owned studio which was equipped with state of the art gear -that were/are considered the golden standard and well described on the biographies of the engineers of the pop/rock sound-. Well, all of these recording sounded like sh*t. The reason? The sound engineers were trained to record traditional and classical music. They could not fit the sound to the gear because they did not know how to do it. It is mostly on the technique and not on the gear.

If i was starting a studio now i would not invest in 15K worth of microphones but on treating the studio itself. Furthermore i would invest on some sound engineering training.

Apologies for the long texts but i am not a native english speaker.
 
John B said:
Any problems with hum from the R88? I've had some RCAs and and there was a hum when oriented on a north/south axis in my room. AEA addresses that issue and says to "rotate" the mic but...hard to rotate my entire setup if you know what I mean.
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No hum issues so far.
 
Vintage Old School said:
...... I can assure you the subtle differences in microphones has nothing to do with marketing hype
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I already apologized for not being natively English speaking. Apparently you misunderstood my point.

Yes the differences do exist and do matter. If you have an unlimited budget or some collaboration with microphone manufacturers (my previous work studio had a colab with SE) then you can try an unlimited number of microphones to find a suitable one.

My point is that for a smaller budget it matters more, the space and the knowledge to manipulate the sound. As you can see from all the previous posters, but since you are an established engineer from your discussion with other engineers too, you are well aware that different engineers use different gear and swear by them for their results. I personally have the studio work as a second (i teach applied math on the local polytechnic and my major is on electronics engineering, that's my main profession ). Since i work -as a passion for recorded audio and music- on studios and i own a small three room studio too, in many instances that i could not separate the scientist from the music-lover, i have seen musicians and engineers making fools of themselves with simple / crude AB blind tests on gear that before they "could hear" the differences but on a level matched / blind test they couldn't.
Again, do not misunderstand me. Yes if you have the budget and the raw recording of the 251 is good in your room then you can invest on a -or two, or three- 251's. But if you have a limited budget, a 1K SE full set can do the job equally well with bit more effort on the DAW. As long as you know what you are doing.
 
Crash_thrash said:
I already apologized for not being natively English speaking. Apparently you misunderstood my point.

Yes the differences do exist and do matter. If you have an unlimited budget or some collaboration with microphone manufacturers (my previous work studio had a colab with SE) then you can try an unlimited number of microphones to find a suitable one.

My point is that for a smaller budget it matters more, the space and the knowledge to manipulate the sound. As you can see from all the previous posters, but since you are an established engineer from your discussion with other engineers too, you are well aware that different engineers use different gear and swear by them for their results. I personally have the studio work as a second (i teach applied math on the local polytechnic and my major is on electronics engineering, that's my main profession ). Since i work -as a passion for recorded audio and music- on studios and i own a small three room studio too, in many instances that i could not separate the scientist from the music-lover, i have seen musicians and engineers making fools of themselves with simple / crude AB blind tests on gear that before they "could hear" the differences but on a level matched / blind test they couldn't.
Again, do not misunderstand me. Yes if you have the budget and the raw recording of the 251 is good in your room then you can invest on a -or two, or three- 251's. But if you have a limited budget, a 1K SE full set can do the job equally well with bit more effort on the DAW. As long as you know what you know what you are doing.
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Crash_thrash, thanks for your post and response. I assure you there was no issue on my part with your English nor your post. My post here was in response to another point that prompted me to share my two cents on what I've come to know about microphones as well as doing a basic rundown on a few of the microphones I use in my home studio. My post was just to share what I have found that works for me and nothing more.

Sometimes it is difficult to assess someone else's needs here on the forum if no budget details are provided in the initial post. Hope no offense was taken because no offense was intended. All is good brother!
 
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Exactly. Gear helps, but room, mic placement, and your skills matter more, especially on a budget. I’ve seen blind tests where people couldn’t tell mics apart despite thinking they could.
With good DAW work and knowing your space, a mid-range setup can sound just as good as expensive gear.
 
srartz said:
Behringer C-2 condenser matched pair
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You can do work with the behringers as overheads. They have the same capsule as many other budget/mid-priced small diaphragm mics made in china. Their circuit is a recreation of a more expensive condenser but with very cheap parts, sometimes with different ratings too, even the pcb is generic which explains their low cost. If i was you I would order from a source that accepts returns as some of them are more noisy by construction. Check a few sets and keep the one set that is "cleaner" sounding.
 
Crash_thrash said:
You can do work with the behringers as overheads. They have the same capsule as many other budget/mid-priced small diaphragm mics made in china. Their circuit is a recreation of a more expensive condenser but with very cheap parts, sometimes with different ratings too, even the pcb is generic which explains their low cost. If i was you I would order from a source that accepts returns as some of them are more noisy by construction. Check a few sets and keep the one set that is "cleaner" sounding.
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Thanks. Maybe I'll get better mics.
 
Crash_thrash said:
You can do work with the behringers as overheads. They have the same capsule as many other budget/mid-priced small diaphragm mics made in china. Their circuit is a recreation of a more expensive condenser but with very cheap parts, sometimes with different ratings too, even the pcb is generic which explains their low cost. If i was you I would order from a source that accepts returns as some of them are more noisyg by construction. Check a few sets and keep the one set that is "cleaner" sounding.
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what would you recommend for lower priced mic bundles? Not the bottom of the barell but a step up that has decent quality.
 
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