Zildjian Cymbal reintroduction

except with a non-piercing recognizable usable bell. cup.
 
jda said:
Intermediate Era is an odd era of Old Ks to go after and that's the (sound build) era that was chosen for this 2025 release.
There's two Other Sound build Eras to get to.

40-58 Old stamp era- frost butterfly breath
59-66 Intermediate era- Dry Dark middle freq. hole
67-72-78 New Stamp era- warm mushrooms most like the modern handmade cymbals that came after in the 80s
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This has always seemed like a flaky way of establishing the date of something-- by packaging, basically. A stamp is a durable piece of equipment; knowing how rough the manufacturing process was then, it doesn't seem likely they would be changing stamps every time time they upgraded/changed some other aspect of the manufacturing process. Like I don't know when they stopped pressing the bells three at a time using a sledge hammer, why would they throw out their older stamp just because they bought a machine bell press?

Anything else notable in the actual build of the cymbal about the different periods of manufacturing, that correlates exactly with the change in stamp design?

jda said:
except with a non-piercing recognizable usable bell. cup.
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I think that's a unique complaint of yours, since many professionals have been using them, and other Turkish brands, for decades now, quite happily, lol.
 
toddbishop said:
knowing how rough the manufacturing process was then, i
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it wasn't It was a small team of the same guys doing that same jobs. That's why there's Era. Why the stamp changed from era to era- is another story. But Old Ks Contrary to popular belief were consistent. Era to Era and within an Era then Style changed. Three big Changes (excluding the prior old K Constantinople) within the K Istanbul era..
I II III IV- old stamp era had common very similar build.

Intermediate 59-66 was almost "another" cymbal compared with the Previous 4 old Stamps. Again familiar build thruout an Era.

Finally the 67-72-78 New Stamp (mind avedis had won the case back in 1968- so they at K in Turkey knew something- didn't know what- was coming (ending up being they were shuttered) New Stamp build era is a slight return to the low cup (but not quite nearly) of the Old Stamp and with a continuation of the lathing introduced (or tooling able to be) of Intermediate era. Again.

3 Old Ks
Consistent. within it's Era's
Like the same team made every one.
Then there'd be a change and the build style changed. 3 times.
That's why it's important to know and hence you'll know what to expect.
There's three Characters in the Old K play.
Old. Int. New.
Reasons as clear as day. when you get near 20 of them and watch and listen to others.
An Intermediate in Kansas is near Identical to one in ...
 
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toddbishop said:
I think that's a unique complaint of yours, since many professionals have been using them, and other Turkish brands, for decades now, quite happily, lol.
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compared with either continent Zildjian; most others are too high pitched and piercing; not many recordings
Elvin had a short period with Istanbul bells.
If you have some other make or your C&G recording of a bell-dominant type tune I'll listen to it

Otherwise the body of the cymbal many can make nice & sweet or any type- funky and dry or whatever
It's the Bell Cup - sound that separates the men From the toys.
Historically Zildjian dominates the 'bell"in recorded example- all genre. No one Sabian and some Paiste can stand (bell) on their own but comparatively/ historically it's not a contest. Zildjian bell Is the sound of thousands..
The post- 80 Turkish makers seemed to overlook is why I call them at the end of the day costume jewelry.
They know how but not why to make a cymbal.
No one has a cup like Zildjian -either continent Zildjian- Sabian is a Zildjian for European export (what the New Brunswick facility was originally for) Sabian is a Zildjian for Europeans.

Bosphorus, Istanbul, bells are clueless
owned many. Bells Unmusical. Everyone of them. I owned and never heard anyone else's any differently..
20s 22s don't matter 18s..too high pitched squeezed Pinched Stratospheric Yuck
 
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jda said:
it wasn't It was a small team of the same guys doing that same jobs. That's why there's Era. Why the stamp changed from era to era- is another story. But Old Ks Contrary to popular belief were consistent. Era to Era and within an Era then Style changed. Three big Changes (excluding the prior old K Constantinople) within the K Istanbul era..
I II III IV- old stamp era had common very similar builds.

Intermediate 59-66 was almost "another" cymbal compared with the Previous 4 old Stamps. Again familiar thruout an Era.

Finally the 67-72-78 New Stamp (mind avedis had won the case back in 1968- so they at K in Turkey knew something- didn't know what- was coming (ending up being they were shuttered) New Stamp build era is a slight return to the low cup (but not nearly as quite) of the Old Stamp with a continuation of the lathing introduced (or able to be) of Intermediate era. Again.

3 Old Ks
Consistent.
I know all about it
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It makes more sense if they're closed down for a period, partially retooling when they start up again.

I'm not sure what consistency means though when there are as many bad Ks as I have played, and relatively few exceptional ones-- if we have a very bad cymbal and a great one from the same period, what standard are we using to call them "consistent"?

Clearly there's a lot of latitude in the manufacturing methods of the time-- like stacking up three cymbals on a bell form, and then beating the holy living p*ss out of them with a sledge hammer, lol!

jda said:
compared with either continent Zildjian; most others are too high pitched and piercing; not many recordings
Elvin had a short period with Istanbul bells.
If you have some other make or your C&G recording of a bell-dominant type tune I'll listen to it

Otherwise the body of the cymbal many can make nice & sweet or any type- funky and dry or whatever
It's the Bell Cup - sound that separates the men From the toys.
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I guess look up any Bosphorus endorser-- eg Jeff Hamilton? I haven't researched an example because it never struck me as a thing that needed proving. Certainly there are ~35+ years worth of recordings by real players using those cymbals, one or two of them might even be as good a judge of a bell sound as you, idk!
 
toddbishop said:
I'm not sure what consistency means though when there are as many bad Ks
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Ok you're going to be one of those guys that never took the cymbal you said was horrible into a playing situation and evaluate it then. That's Ok I know you guys. And Yes a Heavy 16 Intermediate could sound sour.. I heard one once.

But let's get a few things straight. Old K had no interest nor concept of drum set cymbal Theses were for Orchestral Pairs or single suspended. That's First.
They were not thinking along the lines of "Dance Drumming"
That's what Avedis did so successfully in America. He listened to the Drummers. In Turkey? It was Classical Pairs..

Second there is not a manufacturer on earth that hasn't in 70 years or more had a sour cymbal leave the factory. Or makes a cymbal that's appropriate for one task but inappropriate for another..

But keep on with the myths cause that's what they are
 
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toddbishop said:
I haven't researched an example
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I know you haven't cause there ain't many..

None with even your /or CG own brand? (come on man I'm giving you a slow fastball right over the plate 😁
and you ain't taking it..
"Zildjian Bell Is Legendary"

Old K or Avedis Pop Jazz Commercial Movie freaking soundtrack for 100 years and they isn't going anywhere; they still pay attention the cup sound (or it's a natural outgrowth of their 1) all0y density in that area 2) method pf pressing 4) one thing It ain't is accident but could be! It's been a consistent one!

you take a 60s A and a 60s Old K and either bell is relaxed low and (heard on thousands of recordings) musical Pretty
And you still can't come up with one song : )
Remember I'm leaving Sabian out of it and giving Paiste their pass .

why after near 50 years of "modern Turkish Makers"
Because Mehmet and Agop didn't absorb why old Ks were great - but knew how to complete "a cymbal"..and now every and thier Bro open a cymbal routine in Turkey thinking they'll get famous

I challenge anybody- play me a clip of a great modern turkish makers Bell.
 
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jda said:
I know you haven't cause there ain't many..

None with even your /or CG own brand? (come on man I'm giving you a slow fastball right over the plate 😁
and you ain't taking it..
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Because I don't care, honestly-- I'm not even fighting over it, just noting that that's a peculiar complaint of yours that's not shared by the many great musicians who use these cymbals.

I've made a few hundred videos of the cymbals I've sold, and I hit the bell on all of them. I give opionated notes on all of them, so if one has a bell sound I don't like, I make a note of it.

jda said:
I challenge anybody- play me a clip of a great modern turkish makers Bell.
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It's kind of your theory that only one company ever knew how to make a bell-- it's not other people's job to disprove it, to your satisfaction.

Maybe show me a Jeff Hamilton recording-- using Bosphorus-- that proves he doesn't know what's a good bell sound? idk
 
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I could show you an 88 Love Supreme live video of Elvin reaching up hitting and riding an Istanbul cup in a sensitive moment; But I'm good
I didn't say only Zildjian I did include Paiste and the Other Zildjian ; ) Sabian

All I asked was for a low-pitched extremely musical complimentary bell from a post- old K Turkish company would love to hear one some day. But after 40 years many Istanbul previously owned currently 9 Bosphorus, done holding breath : D seems as rare as a four-leaf clover whereas any bog standard old no ink A has a usable melodic musical toned cup...
we're good
(you could have said Lenny White with a jazz example Or Mike Clarke- lemme check if
 
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I only know for Sure my own experience:
Istanbul presplit Mehmet Agop (had all late 90s early aughts)
21" Mel - fair
20" Mel- horrific
20 Original Light Ride- stratospheric horrific and a few 20s I can't remember then add the 18s too
Bosphorus:
Jeff Hamilton 22 - too high
20 Thin Ride- too high
20 Turk Thin Ride- too high unmusical

You see? why go thru the trouble when 20 years ago or less you could have bought an old K (I did 4 or 5 times ) or Yesterday you can buy from backlot of Ebay a 20" A no ink A with a Bell THAT ADDS pleasant compliments to the music

that's what I'm talking about- whether and If the Bell adds to the music compliments the music is a viable Instrument- all on it's own.
Zildjian bell is a viable musical -additional- instrument - all by itself. On it's own - a viable instrument. - Compliments voice- Compliments song- not as an afterthought but alternate musical sound within one pie.

May have noticed I place a BIG importance on Bell.
It's like the third cymbal you have; hi hat, ride and bell that doesn't have the word cow ahead of it.

All my Zildjians guarantee it. A or K. Guarantee comfortably they will fall either right in the middle or underneath adding to- the music.. Others I've and still own not so much

It's important to me to "Love The cymbals cup"
I judge a cymbal by it's cup. I'm very judgecupmental.
 
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What I may be talking about is something Paiste describes in a pamplet catalog I own ( and they've said it other times) Under Each Cymbal model is "Bell Character"

And the three (maybe more) options depending on the cymbal's build are

"integrated"
"separated"
"separated, clear, loud"
they use other variations but for what I want to say "separated and integrated" will suffice.

I think what irks me most - instead of an "intergrated" bell - as I think Avedis Zildjian and old K. Zildjian have - the modern Turkish manufacturers I'm familiar with and have bought over the years - feature and it's not a feature to me.. "separated" bells. Which to me goes against what a Turkish - "Genuine" or otherwise - bell should be -> integrated

Let's call "separated" bell sharp - centered isolated 'small island'
and "integrated" flat - it integrates elements of the cymbal body in it's tone

That's what I like "integrated" bells and 90% ( a guess it may be higher) Zildjians old Ks and USA lean "integrated" side.
as I'd like to hear before final picture of the Kerope 2025 Bells.. I know old Z's
 
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striker said:
If I am seeing this correctly, it looks like he is using nylon tip sticks for this demo.
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Yes, I had a pair of Vic Firth 7A nylons in my stick bag that day, and those happened to sound the best to me in that room on those particular cymbals. I should have probably used my regular sticks (Zildjian John Riley) for the video because I’ve been getting a lot of questions about that!
 
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