The need to feel talented

"Talented" implies relative ability to acquire ability.

I am reading your idea as "The need to feel able."

Ability in art is not comparable across artists as much as we like to believe it is...the idea is a true non-sequitur.

You can have an opinion of relative artistic ability...but it is just that.

i have no need for irrational valuation and comparison and experience pure joy in the abilities i witness, including my own, with a sadness when i don't.

i have been enchanted walking through an art display from regional grade school students.

i have been horrendously bored at multi-million dollar art installations.

...or as often quoted on this board, "Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, your opinion, man."

Truth has a way of lifting us all.

Duck Tape said:

Is the bulk of your self esteem tied up in your musicianship or are you content with a sub par self assessment?

Did you reach an elite level and find happiness, or find it’s not found there?

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This year, marks 55 years of playing the drums for me. I've never had lessons, did not play in school and there is a lot that I don't know, especially reading, and musical lingo, music theory, octaves and all that mental stuff. I like to say, I just like to hit things. I know that I'm not great by any stretch of the imagination but sometimes some things happen that make me feel pretty good about my playing. For instance, when a total stranger at a gig tells me how tight my drumming is, that makes me feel pretty good. I'm able to fill in with bands I've never played with before and it usually goes pretty good and they're impressed with me. I was doing that last weekend and when the vocalist introduced me he said, "we just met Mike a couple of hours ago and it's like he's always been with us. Now that's a real musician". Let me tell ya, that really made me feel good about my playing. In reality I know several drummers personally who can drum circles around me and they're not pros. There are millions better than me but I'm quite OK with that, I love playing. I'm a member of a country band and a classic rock band and I'll fill in with any band in those genres if I'm available. I'm always wood sheding at home so I'm still getting better. I guess I'm fine with being sub par, especially to the pros.

Otto said:

"Talented" implies relative ability to acquire ability.

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I love this!!! gonna use it a lot

bermuda said:

I have a pretty realistic assessment of my capabilities, although I'm probably more critical/aware of little things that may be less apparent to other players I work with. But ultimately, the people who keep hiring me are the real judges of my talent, and I have lengthy relationships with four bands right now at 14, 20, 44 and 45 years.

So, I'm gonna rely on their judgement.

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You're in a fortunate spot...

Most of the bands that I work with are attempting to out Lynyrd Skynyrd each other, or out Doobie Brothers each other, or out blues each other...and they all play to empty rooms which obviously can't go on for long.

lefty2 said:

This year, marks 55 years of playing the drums for me. I've never had lessons, did not play in school and there is a lot that I don't know, especially reading, and musical lingo, music theory, octaves and all that mental stuff. I like to say, I just like to hit things. I know that I'm not great by any stretch of the imagination but sometimes some things happen that make me feel pretty good about my playing. For instance, when a total stranger at a gig tells me how tight my drumming is, that makes me feel pretty good. I'm able to fill in with bands I've never played with before and it usually goes pretty good and they're impressed with me. I was doing that last weekend and when the vocalist introduced me he said, "we just met Mike a couple of hours ago and it's like he's always been with us. Now that's a real musician". Let me tell ya, that really made me feel good about my playing. In reality I know several drummers personally who can drum circles around me and they're not pros. There are millions better than me but I'm quite OK with that, I love playing. I'm a member of a country band and a classic rock band and I'll fill in with any band in those genres if I'm available. I'm always wood sheding at home so I'm still getting better. I guess I'm fine with being sub par, especially to the pros.

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The reality is that the majority of Pro drummers don't make as much money with only drumming so they have to resort to other avenues such as clinics and endorsements. So, you might not be a pro, but I am sure your standard of living is probably better than theirs.
I had a friend who I met in one of the Navy schools in Pensacola Fla, he was in a band touring nationally, making music videos with Hollywood directors, getting guitar endorsements and such. He told me that there are about 10 bands at the time that he was touring with them, that actually make real money, the rest has to wonder if they would even have money for food that day. He said he realized that he couldn't continue with that so he joined the Navy, he got promoted fast and met his now wife so he can't be happier, but of course he still dabbles with guitar. Maybe in the future he can become a YouTube bedroom guitarist and make some money that way.
Also take into account that you get to play what you like, People that actually make money usually are part of band that has to play that band's catalog like Metallica now for 40 years, they according to interviews are bored out of their mind playing some of their classics. Yes they make a lot of money but they also pay a high price.

doggyd69b said:

The reality is that the majority of Pro drummers don't make as much money with only drumming so they have to resort to other avenues such as clinics and endorsements. So, you might not be a pro, but I am sure your standard of living is probably better than theirs.
I had a friend who I met in one of the Navy schools in Pensacola Fla, he was in a band touring nationally, making music videos with Hollywood directors, getting guitar endorsements and such. He told me that there are about 10 bands at the time that he was touring with them, that actually make real money, the rest has to wonder if they would even have money for food that day. He said he realized that he couldn't continue with that so he joined the Navy, he got promoted fast and met his now wife so he can't be happier, but of course he still dabbles with guitar. Maybe in the future he can become a YouTube bedroom guitarist and make some money that way.
Also take into account that you get to play what you like, People that actually make money usually are part of band that has to play that band's catalog like Metallica now for 40 years, they according to interviews are bored out of their mind playing some of their classics. Yes they make a lot of money but they also pay a high price.

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Oh I believe that. I was a welder all my life, since 16 anyway. I'm retired now so I never depended on drumming for anything except the joy it brings me.

lefty2 said:

Oh I believe that. I was a welder all my life, since 16 anyway. I'm retired now so I never depended on drumming for anything except the joy it brings me.

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Exactly, I had some great gigs, the highlight being a gig I played in front of ten thousand people (with my first band and as my first gig). crazy how we got there from a very small bedroom to a huge stage and then played a gig at a bar that night that it was so packed it would have been shutdown by the fire marshal if that was a thing in Mexico. We got a taste of fame for a time but never all the money or roadies.. (we did get some groupies). but I have by that time become mature enough to realize that I needed to get a regular job and make drumming my hobby. And that's what it is still.

doggyd69b said:

Exactly, I had some great gigs, the highlight being a gig I played in front of ten thousand people (with my first band and as my first gig). crazy how we got there from a very small bedroom to a huge stage and then played a gig at a bar that night that it was so packed it would have been shutdown by the fire marshal if that was a thing in Mexico. We got a taste of fame for a time but never all the money or roadies.. (we did get some groupies). but I have by that time become mature enough to realize that I needed to get a regular job and make drumming my hobby. And that's what it is still.

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that sounds like Queensryche's beginning story....

The need to be "talented" is an interesting topic and I think it depends on who is evaluating said talent-yourself or others. Who doesn't want to have a talent or be considered talented in something. If yourself there is the caveat of Dunning-Kreuger effect of cognitive dissonance bias where people with limited abilities or experience over estimate their competence (it's not an intelligence thing but really a lack of objectivity). But then there are people who are overly self-critical and that can be just as detrimental. I think with drumming I fall into latter a bit being overly self-critical because I know my competence level (I think LOL), however in research years I think I may have bordered on hypomania when I was on a roll of success-so perhaps falling into Dunning-Keuring. I started wondering had grad school driven me bipolar LOL. It didn't last I found an even keel thankfully in research but I still think I'm too critical of drumming and not without logical reasons-because I never took lessons, I don't read, I don't really try to methodically improve, and no formal music training to call myself a musician. Now I think I think about silly crap like that too much-and that's the problem not either aforementioned ROFL. When I die I don't want people to say "Art was an intelligent man and good scientist. Art was a great drummer. I'd prefer "Art was a loving caring man. Art was a man who you could reason with, " "Art liked to have fun and maintained some child-like qualities". Art was a good husband and a great father. That's the talent I seek.

Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX said:

that sounds like Queensryche's beginning story....

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Funny enough I have seen them live and own some of their records (nothing after Empire) but I don't know much about their history as a band.

GetAgrippa said:

The need to be "talented" is an interesting topic and I think it depends on who is evaluating said talent-yourself or others. Who doesn't want to have a talent or be considered talented in something. If yourself there is the caveat of Dunning-Kreuger effect of cognitive dissonance bias where people with limited abilities or experience over estimate their competence (it's not an intelligence thing but really a lack of objectivity). But then there are people who are overly self-critical and that can be just as detrimental. I think with drumming I fall into latter a bit being overly self-critical because I know my competence level (I think LOL), however in research years I think I may have bordered on hypomania when I was on a roll of success-so perhaps falling into Dunning-Keuring. I started wondering had grad school driven me bipolar LOL. It didn't last I found an even keel thankfully in research but I still think I'm too critical of drumming and not without logical reasons-because I never took lessons, I don't read, I don't really try to methodically improve, and no formal music training to call myself a musician. Now I think I think about silly crap like that too much-and that's the problem not either aforementioned ROFL. When I die I don't want people to say "Art was an intelligent man and good scientist. Art was a great drummer. I'd prefer "Art was a loving caring man. Art was a man who you could reason with, " "Art liked to have fun and maintained some child-like qualities". Art was a good husband and a great father. That's the talent I seek.

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I think an easy way to assess your own playing is to record yourself, even better take a video and watch yourself and be truthful but objective.
Was your timing good or all over the place?
If playing something original, would you say someone other than you not knowing it was you playing it would think its good?
If you recorded a video, do you seem relaxed or tense?
None of this things are an indication of talent, but they will help you more accurately determine your level.
Now for those that decide to nitpick everything... sorry but I have never heard any drummer ever that was completely flawless LIVE. Never, so what do you expect (not you Getagrippa, those who are overly self critical), if consummated pro's make mistakes of course those of us who play or practice much less frequently are going to make even more mistakes so there's that, but focusing on what you do wrong instead of what you do right is not helpful IMO.

Made a conscious effort to not be self conscious / just gets in the way all that introspective dishwater. Just love drumming and can’t wait to do it. Love listening to other drummers , especially those really getting into it and letting their voice sing out loudly. Way more impressed and affected by drummers who listen, lock in with the other Muso’s then fill it with their expression and energy vs. a technician.

I think often times drummers have a high need for people to think they are great. If you think about it, we are almost never the band leader, and so we basically always rely on others to hire us. So I get it, especially if music is paying your rent. Everything is based on reputation, and everyone is hustling to stay relevant. It’s sort of like drummers are desperate to market themselves. I’m glad that I don’t make a living in music, because it seems exhausting.

On the other hand, if music is not your livelihood, then it does not need to be the way. My motto is always do your best, but don’t have your entire self worth wrapped up into your drumming. There are other aspects of life (including relationships) that are simply more important than music.

If using the 10,000 hour rule to reach mastery, you need to practice 2 hours every day, every week, for almost 14 years.
I’m sure there are people who do it, but I’m not one of them. I will attempt something new, and if it’s physically beyond me, F it.
I play for the pure joy of it all.

My drive with the instrument is not any accomplishments or ‘level’ but my shortcomings.

I always want to do better or challenge myself. I’m my own worst critic.

I hate compliments from people, I feel really uncomfortable with them as I know my own level and the many, many things I need to improve. I even feel a little uncomfortable sometimes with people in audiences clapping the band when I feel we could have delivered a song better, which I know is a little weird but being honest here.

I had a chat with someone after a gig the last couple weeks whereby he was praising me, saying how I’ve immediately improved the band from the previous drummer and he couldn’t understand why I didn’t agree with his observations / praises - which were a little over the top anyway.

Without sounding negative, I explained in response that the level he perceives me at isn’t any god given talent, it’s simply the result and a reflection of all the hours I’ve put into it on my own practising. If he thinks those hours have resulted in something then that’s great, but I know what more I need to improve so it’s not a case of me being “too humble” - in his words.

Also….the memory of a rushed fill in one of the songs was really bugging me at the time

I don’t play the drums to receive praise or feel special and I don’t need any plaudits, I do it and I put the work into improving myself as I love the instruments

My need isn’t to feel talented, my need is to challenge myself & improve myself and also fix errors in my playing.

The day I relax and start to need validation from other people is the day maybe I’ve lost focus and that fire in my belly to prove myself, to myself, has diminished.

Finally, I’m not as grumpy as this post might make out

When too much is never enough , the road may become very steep .

Duck Tape said:

Many beautiful young women stare in the mirror and need constant reminders that they’re beautiful, it’s an undeniable fact as far as others are concerned, but they just can’t believe it themselves, I wonder if musicians are the same about the quality of their playing.

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I have a shirt that says, "World's Okayest Drummer". I wear that for the audience hearing me play. They all can at least agree on what it says, but most hold me higher than that.

If I were to have one that said, "World's Greatest Drummer", they'd have their doubts. Keep people's expectations low & you'll always be the hero.

Juniper said:

My drive with the instrument is not any accomplishments or ‘level’ but my shortcomings.

I always want to do better or challenge myself. I’m my own worst critic.

I hate compliments from people, I feel really uncomfortable with them as I know my own level and the many, many things I need to improve. I even feel a little uncomfortable sometimes with people in audiences clapping the band when I feel we could have delivered a song better, which I know is a little weird but being honest here.

I had a chat with someone after a gig the last couple weeks whereby he was praising me, saying how I’ve immediately improved the band from the previous drummer and he couldn’t understand why I didn’t agree with his observations / praises - which were a little over the top anyway.

Without sounding negative, I explained in response that the level he perceives me at isn’t any god given talent, it’s simply the result and a reflection of all the hours I’ve put into it on my own practising. If he thinks those hours have resulted in something then that’s great, but I know what more I need to improve so it’s not a case of me being “too humble” - in his words.

Also….the memory of a rushed fill in one of the songs was really bugging me at the time

I don’t play the drums to receive praise or feel special and I don’t need any plaudits, I do it and I put the work into improving myself as I love the instruments

My need isn’t to feel talented, my need is to challenge myself & improve myself and also fix errors in my playing.

The day I relax and start to need validation from other people is the day maybe I’ve lost focus and that fire in my belly to prove myself, to myself, has diminished.

Finally, I’m not as grumpy as this post might make out

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pretty much me exactly!!!

Duck Tape said:

Did you reach an elite level and find happiness, or find it’s not found there?

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You can find "happiness" at any skill level. Drums are fun!

I think what you mean is contentedness.

But what even is an elite level?

Buddy Rich? Nate Smith? Keith Carlock? Vinnie? Sure, of course.

How about Stewart Copeland, Neil Peart, Chad Smith, or Mike Portnoy? Are they elite? Great musicians all, but if we're being honest, on a pure skills basis the first group blows them out of the water.

Are you elite when you can make any audience collectively see you as a great a musician?

Are you elite when all the musicians you know, and especially the strong ones, see you as a great musician?

I can see colorable arguments to place the threshold in a number of places.

But as far as people who strive to be "elite," I don't think they find "contentment" until they're very close the summit regardless. Before that, there's always someone who can make you look like a scrub. You can be 99th percentile, blowing everyone's mind in your home town's music scene... but put yourself beside a 99.9999th percentile Maison Guidry and you may as well be a rank amateur.

And no matter how good you are, there will always be "white whales" out there. Things that you wish you could do, that you can imagine yourself doing... but can't, not yet at least.

The catch-22 is... the best drummers are the best drummers because they are *hungry* for it. Well, for other reasons too, but hunger is a prerequisite. These are people predisposed to be discontent with their own skill level, even when they're great. If you're content with your skill level, and you *aren't* near the tippy top, you probably aren't elite even given a more relaxed definition. Unless perhaps, your level of contentedness changed for some other reason.

Because, you know, life happens. You may be hungry for a time, and then you start a family and priorities shift. Or you could find success and fame with music and realize what you have is enough already.

Stay positive...