Growth and practice time

Nah, not going to tell you that, at least unless you can find a really great teacher.

But I will suggest that you could try shifting your focus away from learning parts to more just, well... improving.

Not saying that you can't do the former at all, just that it probably shouldn't be anything close to your primary means of learning.

The things you're focusing on reproducing? For the recording artist, the vast majority of the time that's some combination of highly internalized things that came out in the moment.

You get good by taking something general, playing with it, mutating it, moving it around, and combining it with other things, not by memorizing a bunch of ultra specific stickings. Those "check out this cool fill: left, right, kick, double left..." Youtube channels are really the bane of learning drums.

To the extent you are focusing on something specific, it should be *on top* of your existing general aptitude. Less "Okay, this is what I need to do to play this part" and more "Oh, I hadn't thought of arranging paradiddles that way before. Working through this part will help me gain that facility."

I almost never look at songs as things to learn, but instead as vehicles to learn things. Like a more exciting metronome.
The thing is, every time I learn a new song (new in the sense of me being able to play it), that unlocks me being able to play multiple other things that I couldn't before. To me that is a measure of progress. I don't get that from just practicing rudiments.
As stated before, lessons are not for me. I don't enjoy them and don't get anything from them. However I am improving every time I sit at the kit.
I also don't go with the mindset of memorizing parts, I just go with the mindset of playing things with fluidity and ease. If I am struggling, maybe I am trying something I am not yet ready for.

I have done that and again when it gets too frustrating I move on and revisit later, no sense for me to force myself to fail and fail. It becomes demotivating really quick.
On the other hand, when I accomplish something, I get motivated to continue to something harder and the cycle repeats.
I have "unlocked" a lot more stuff this way than when trying to follow a book or during the one lesson (which I took after being playing in bands for over 10 years) where the "instructor" focused on me holding the sticks wrong.
He wanted me to hold them in traditional mode (really uncomfortable for me), Never mind that I could play anything he threw at me (holding the sticks my way, which also happened to be the same way all the people I looked at were holding them). I finished the lesson and never went back.
 
so I have always been in the minority...I practice all the time...alot...the feeling of the sticks connecting with a surface in tadnem with each other has always been a high

even as a kid, i played ALL DAY if I could. in elemnetary and middle school. I got home around 4, and played drums until 8pm...then played bass till 10. (had to stop drumming so the cops wouldn't get called). My parents would have to drag me off of the kit to eat dinner. I never did school work because i knew I was goign to be a drummer for a career

I am now 56, and I still play at least 4-6 hours a day b/c of my job. But what I have done in the past 10 years is noticed that I only do "focused" practice about once every 4 or 5 days. The rest is just playing...it is using the skills that focused practice develops.

i have no problem keeping entertained, and finding stuff to work on and develop.

I am already planning on tomorrow's session...gotta run sound for our middle school theater camp, then in the 6 hours before their show, I will paly along to a ton of albums...specifically the first 4 Ozzy solo albums in memory....
 
Apart how, like separate from a single human nervous system? Serious question.

I don't see the value of that distinction. All that coordination/independence is is notes in unison and notes in sequence, both of which are forms of working together.
Well, I thought the neurological example was more or less perfect in showing there are two different phenomena at play. So, I'm not totally sure why you want to disregard that and have me produce a different argument. But, I'll try anyway.

To start, I think you're being a bit reductionistic. Two things are not the same because they share things in common, or even because at some level they are composed of the same stuff. Categories are defined by differences.

This is just the first example that comes to mind, but a float is not an int is not a string. What you're arguing sounds a lot like someone saying: "All that ints/floats/strings are is sequences of bits, so they're actually all the same." Well, no. You can't perform arithmetic on strings.

In terms of drumming, coordination and independence feel different and have different failure modes. Take a single stroke roll and keep speeding it up; eventually it just loses coherence when you reach the point that you lack sufficient control to place notes where you want them to go. What you don't feel is one limb tugging at the other to conform with it, to rebel against the motion it is being asked to perform. Well, a beginner might, but for you or I, I suspect that simple "one hand then the other" independence has been solved a long time ago.

And I don't think your "if you just slow it down to a crawl and look where the notes land, you can play anything" example totally holds up either (and because I'm addressing this, which I think is your strongest argument, I'd appreciate it if you addressed my neurological point if/when you reply in the future).

Slowing things down lowers the bar for coordination and independence. And, starting very slow and gradually speeding up can help with both too.

But they're still different things.

So, while I don't think the "reduction" is valid, I also don't think it works all the time either. Isaac Jamba playing an ostinato at a constant tempo with his right hand while the left hand plays singles, smoothly transitioning from slow to fast, back and forth again, in a continuous rather than a discrete fashion... I don't think you can reduce that to "just play it slow." There isn't even a coordination element. It's 100% independence and 0% coordination. Jamba has developed this context to such a point that the left and right hand have next to no pull on one another. Two human beings can do the same thing effortlessly, with zero coordination between them. They don't even need to be in the same room, the fundamental for reason is that, absent some kind of telepathy, is that the motions my limbs make do not tug on the motions yours make. But if we divide the left and right side of paradiddles between us, that's a different matter.

Going back to the neurological thing, coordination is making connections between limbs, independence is breaking them.

I also think "slow it down enough and you can see they are the same" fails when you think of limb motions and not just note placement. A two-stroke push-pull motion against a three-stroke Moeller motion becomes easier when you slow things down, but that's because the motions become more discrete and less continuous. You can feel one limb "pulling" the other into its motion and overcome it at a slow enough tempo not because you can "coordinate" the motions perfectly, but because you can disrupt the motions to some extent and still hit the notes. Critically, if you just take some polyrhythm and slow it down to the point that the notes are light-years apart, and you don't care about the motions of the limbs, then you don't feel your limbs "pulling" at one another at all.

They're different things.
 
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Coordination and independence aren't only not the same thing, they're practically opposites: One is the ability for limbs to work together and the other is the ability for limbs to work apart from one another.
I was under the impression that coordination and independence were terms for the same thing, and that the former was preferred because the latter implied more than one brain. It is the "appearance" of independence that the audience sees, but that is actualized by mastering coordination, which is (generally speaking) studying figures against ostinato patterns. And because drummers are providing a groove for the band to click into, that coordination has hands lining up or filling space, all falling into the given time signature and sub-divisions.
 
Well, I thought the neurological example was more or less perfect in showing there are two different phenomena at play. So, I'm not totally sure why you want to disregard that and have me produce a different argument. But, I'll try anyway.

To start, I think you're being a bit reductionistic. Two things are not the same because they share things in common, or even because at some level they are composed of the same stuff. Categories are defined by differences.

This is just the first example that comes to mind, but a float is not an int is not a string. What you're arguing sounds a lot like someone saying: "All that ints/floats/strings are is sequences of bits, so they're actually all the same." Well, no. You can't perform arithmetic on strings.

In terms of drumming, coordination and independence feel different and have different failure modes. Take a single stroke roll and keep speeding it up; eventually it just loses coherence when you reach the point that you lack sufficient control to place notes where you want them to go. What you don't feel is one limb tugging at the other to conform with it, to rebel against the motion it is being asked to perform. Well, a beginner might, but for you or I, I suspect that simple "one hand then the other" independence has been solved a long time ago.

And I don't think your "if you just slow it down to a crawl and look where the notes land, you can play anything" example totally holds up either (and because I'm addressing this, which I think is your strongest argument, I'd appreciate it if you addressed my neurological point if/when you reply in the future).

Slowing things down lowers the bar for coordination and independence. And, starting very slow and gradually speeding up can help with both too.

But they're still different things.

So, while I don't think the "reduction" is valid, I also don't think it works all the time either. Isaac Jamba playing an ostinato at a constant tempo with his right hand while the left hand plays singles, smoothly transitioning from slow to fast, back and forth again, in a continuous rather than a discrete fashion... I don't think you can reduce that to "just play it slow." There isn't even a coordination element. It's 100% independence and 0% coordination. Jamba has developed this context to such a point that the left and right hand have next to no pull on one another. Two human beings can do the same thing effortlessly, with zero coordination between them. They don't even need to be in the same room, the fundamental for reason is that, absent some kind of telepathy, is that the motions my limbs make do not tug on the motions yours make. But if we divide the left and right side of paradiddles between us, that's a different matter.

Going back to the neurological thing, coordination is making connections between limbs, independence is breaking them.

This really isn't the kind of thing that gets resolved through debate, the only thing that actually counts is the results-- learning to do a thing well the fastest way possible.

You said you were having difficulty with independence as you pursue it based on these theories. Maybe it's really really hard, or maybe your theory is just no good. Is it a possibility?

I also think "slow it down enough and you can see they are the same" fails when you think of limb motions and not just note placement. A two-stroke push-pull motion against a three-stroke Moeller motion becomes easier when you slow things down, but that's because the motions become more discrete and less continuous. You can feel one limb "pulling" the other into its motion and overcome it at a slow enough tempo not because you can "coordinate" the motions perfectly, but because you can disrupt the motions to some extent and still hit the notes. Critically, if you just take some polyrhythm and slow it down to the point that the notes are light-years apart, and you don't care about the motions of the limbs, then you don't feel your limbs "pulling" at one another at all.

If playing with a particular physical motion is important to you, I guess after you can play the notes, it will be a fairly small thing to add that kind of motion. That has never been a priority to me.

I was under the impression that coordination and independence were terms for the same thing, and that the former was preferred because the latter implied more than one brain.

That's how I feel about it. The terms are usually interchangeable, he's making a unique argument here.
 
You said you were having difficulty with independence

Not quite. I'm ambidextrous. Independence is one of my strongest areas. What I said was that working on independence is the only practice I have difficulty enjoying.

But I agree this debate has run its course.
 
For most of my life, my practice has always been very focused on specific things with not a lot of messing around. Every so often I’ll break away and mess around on something, but it’s not something I do for long stretches and that I do even regularly. My practice has always been very structured and I know what I’m going to be working on from day-to-day Specifically. I will go through spurts where I want to practice more, but for some reason I have a hard time making myself go more than an hour and a half at a time by myself. Realistically , it’s probably because of time constraints in a way. I teach drum lesson lessons full-time for a living and it takes me an hour and a half one way to get to work. So by the time I finish practicing my hour to an hour and a half it’s already very late at night, so I don’t have a ton of time to get other things done in order to at least chill out for a small bit before I have to hit the bed. It would probably be a bit different if I lived closer to where I work and didn’t have to spend so much time on the road.

Interestingly enough, the vast majority of working professional musicians probably don’t even practice when it comes to anything other than learning new music for bands. I remember seeing a segment on a DVD with Steve Smith where he says that he only practices by himself about an hour a day. Also remember seeing a segment with Eric Singer where he talked about wanting to have more in his life than just spending all of it in the practice room. Maybe after practicing so much for so many years I feel a similar way. But at the same time, I still want keep growing and developing. Honestly, I think it’s better to practice an hour to an hour and a half a day where one is focused then to try to drag oneself through a 2 to 5 hour practice sessions only to get burned out and not want to go practice at all. Everybody’s different and you have to find what works for you and keeps you going. And just because I’m currently at that hour to an hour and a half mark that doesn’t mean I won’t wake up in a week and want to start putting in five hours every day.

Burnout is definitely a real thing, and also you have to be careful not to over practice and injure yourself (especially as you get older). I know there are times where I want to go longer, but my body is telling me that I need to stop for the night.
 
Figuring out the combined rhythm of all the parts, then playing that rhythm as a four-way sticking, makes it a lot easier, and the results more solid. No struggling whatsoever if you start at a tempo you can do it.

Right. At any given moment (meaning on any given count), there is a relatively small number of possible things that can be occurring.

Basically, you can have...

a) silence (no limbs playing anything at all)
b) one of your limbs playing alone
c) 2 of your limbs playing in unison
d) 3 of your limbs playing in unison
e) all 4 of your limbs playing in unison


The audience is hearing two independent rhythms, the player is playing RLRL.

Funny you would say this. Just a few hours ago, I taught a lesson on 2 against 3. I told the student that, even though the result would be one hand playing 2 and one hand playing 3, the way to execute it is to think about playing "Both-Right-Left-Right."
 
Right. At any given moment (meaning on any given count), there is a relatively small number of possible things that can be occurring.

Basically, you can have...

a) silence (no limbs playing anything at all)
b) one of your limbs playing alone
c) 2 of your limbs playing in unison
d) 3 of your limbs playing in unison
e) all 4 of your limbs playing in unison

I was trying to develop a four way sticking system, couldn't work out anything consistent, and it gets silly as you get into the three way combinations. Having a "both hands" sticking (B or H) and a "rh/rf unison" sticking (R or R or R circled) is really helpful.

Funny you would say this. Just a few hours ago, I taught a lesson on 2 against 3. I told the student that, even though the result would be one hand playing 2 and one hand playing 3, the way to execute it is to think about playing "Both-Right-Left-Right."

I usually count the rhythm too-- 1 2&3. They can all do it instantly.

That really seems to be an essential unit of drum set coordination-- it's one of the early things I teach when moving someone to drum set. I've written a bunch of junk exploring it.
 
They can all do it instantly.

My student did it almost instantly…BUT…eventually there was a moment where he became disoriented, and the rhythm fell apart.

I asked him what happened, and he told me that he had started focusing on the 2 side of the rhythm and trying to hear it as 2.

To paraphrase something that a previous teacher once said to me, “The magician got fooled by his own trick!”
😂
 
This really isn't the kind of thing that gets resolved through debate, the only thing that actually counts is the results-- learning to do a thing well the fastest way possible.

You said you were having difficulty with independence as you pursue it based on these theories. Maybe it's really really hard, or maybe your theory is just no good. Is it a possibility?



If playing with a particular physical motion is important to you, I guess after you can play the notes, it will be a fairly small thing to add that kind of motion. That has never been a priority to me.



That's how I feel about it. The terms are usually interchangeable, he's making a unique argument here.
I tend to think of independence as just a subset of coordination. The subtitle of Chapin's famous book refers to "Coordinated independence." I also recall reading something by Joe Morello where he said that Chapin's book is an excellent way to develop coordination. I can also recall reading an article in Percussive Notes (some 30 years ago, so hopefully I am remembering it correctly) that scientific research has shown that the brain tends to interpret simultaneous motions as one "thing" rather than two independent actions; that is to say, instead of interpreting two melodic lines (played by different limbs) as separate entities, and hence horizontally, the brain tends to process things "vertically." That notion has stuck with me, and leads me to agree with your contention, Todd, that thinking vertically (for lack of a better term) might be a better way to look at practicing than thinking "horizontally." But no doubt I am oversimplifying the issue. Ultimately what counts is the end result, however one gets there (although I realize that this discussion is about what is the best/quickest/easiest/most efficient way to get there, which is important to consider).
 
My student did it almost instantly…BUT…eventually there was a moment where he became disoriented, and the rhythm fell apart.

I asked him what happened, and he told me that he had started focusing on the 2 side of the rhythm and trying to hear it as 2.

To paraphrase something that a previous teacher once said to me, “The magician got fooled by his own trick!”
😂

They start hearing it as a polyrhythm and get thrown by it. God knows what would happen if they just tried to vibe 3:2 as two independent parts.

I tend to think of independence as just a subset of coordination. The subtitle of Chapin's famous book refers to "Coordinated independence." I also recall reading something by Joe Morello where he said that Chapin's book is an excellent way to develop coordination. I can also recall reading an article in Percussive Notes (some 30 years ago, so hopefully I am remembering it correctly) that scientific research has shown that the brain tends to interpret simultaneous motions as one "thing" rather than two independent actions; that is to say, instead of interpreting two melodic lines (played by different limbs) as separate entities, and hence horizontally, the brain tends to process things "vertically."

And of course that's what Advanced Techniques is all about, lining things up, making one thing out of them:

1753465335201.png

That's what that phrase coordinated independence means to me-- that there are two independent/distinct musical lines-- the snare drum and the cymbal-- that the drummer executes as a single coordinated pattern.

That notion has stuck with me, and leads me to agree with your contention, Todd, that thinking vertically (for lack of a better term) might be a better way to look at practicing than thinking "horizontally." But no doubt I am oversimplifying the issue. Ultimately what counts is the end result, however one gets there (although I realize that this discussion is about what is the best/quickest/easiest/most efficient way to get there, which is important to consider).

I think about 10-12 years ago I started working on a lot of hard independence stuff, and it forced the issue-- working on ordinary stuff when you're young we'll mostly slop it together, and then just work on it until it sounds OK. With really hard stuff there's no way to do it but step by step.

It's the same thing with piano, there is no independence, there's just the unified thing both hands are doing simultaneously and in sequence. Right now I'm learning a Chopin Nocturne-- you don't start out by just trying to vibe 11:6 or 22:12, you start by resolving it to a playable rhythm, with unisons with the left hand, then massaging so it floats as an expressive rhythm.

If there's ever a feeling of independence, it's the result of a very long deliberate process like that. You get the same thing out of working with New Breed.

800px-Chopin_nocturne_op9_1a.png
 
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If there's ever a feeling of independence, it's the result of a very long deliberate process like that. You get the same thing out of working with New Breed.

View attachment 159686
Love that 11 artificial group moving to 22 (doubling)...in a triple pulse that is a nice illusion!

I think the real value of 'practice' in my more advanced years is the growth of my ears and ability to, for a bit, approach what it is like to be a pure listener and not a music analyst.

I love making myself laugh at something I discover and just barely notice. It seems what I find are the ways I am conceiving relationships...and have laughed at simple things that hold profound interlacing. (fun like triplets on triplets and using the resulting pulse as a simple duple 'feel')
 
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My practice time lasted about more than 4 minutes, it's a task for a drummer who can learn how to play Rudiments on the pad or on snare drum, I brought my Vic Firth Pad for the time being, maybe this would help shape my playing style.

To effectively practice drums, structure your sessions, focusing on technique, timing, musicality, and consistency. Start with a warm-up, working on timing and basic beats or advanced patterns depending on your skill level. Gradually increase tempo to warm up your muscles, but always prioritize playing slowly and accurately to build muscle memory.

Key elements of a successful drum practice routine:
1. Warm-up:
Begin with basic beats or funk/samba grooves to get your limbs moving and relax.
2. Technique and Rudiments:
Dedicate time to hand and foot techniques, focusing on rebound, control strokes, and fundamental rudiments like singles, doubles, and paradiddles. This can be done on a practice pad or around the kit.
3. Timing with a Metronome:
Essential for developing a strong internal clock, practice various rhythms and fills with a metronome.
4. Musicality:
Practice playing along with songs in different styles and tempos to improve your feel and adaptability.
5. Learning New Material:
When tackling new beats or fills, start slowly and break down challenging sections into smaller, manageable parts.
6. Working on Weaknesses:
Identify your weak spots and intentionally dedicate practice time to improve them, turning them into strengths.
7. Consistency:
Aim for regular, focused practice sessions, even if they are shorter, to ensure steady progress.
8. Feedback:
Consider getting feedback from a drum teacher to refine your technique and get personalized guidance.

My drum teachers knows what a good drummer I was, it gives me a passion of love for music and desire to bring new energies to the table, perfect confidence intelligent personality with sense of finding greatness.

Never lose balance.
 
My practice time lasted about more than 4 minutes, it's a task for a drummer who can learn how to play Rudiments on the pad or on snare drum, I brought my Vic Firth Pad for the time being, maybe this would help shape my playing style.

To effectively practice drums, structure your sessions, focusing on technique, timing, musicality, and consistency. Start with a warm-up, working on timing and basic beats or advanced patterns depending on your skill level. Gradually increase tempo to warm up your muscles, but always prioritize playing slowly and accurately to build muscle memory.

Key elements of a successful drum practice routine:
1. Warm-up:
Begin with basic beats or funk/samba grooves to get your limbs moving and relax.
2. Technique and Rudiments:
Dedicate time to hand and foot techniques, focusing on rebound, control strokes, and fundamental rudiments like singles, doubles, and paradiddles. This can be done on a practice pad or around the kit.
3. Timing with a Metronome:
Essential for developing a strong internal clock, practice various rhythms and fills with a metronome.
4. Musicality:
Practice playing along with songs in different styles and tempos to improve your feel and adaptability.
5. Learning New Material:
When tackling new beats or fills, start slowly and break down challenging sections into smaller, manageable parts.
6. Working on Weaknesses:
Identify your weak spots and intentionally dedicate practice time to improve them, turning them into strengths.
7. Consistency:
Aim for regular, focused practice sessions, even if they are shorter, to ensure steady progress.
8. Feedback:
Consider getting feedback from a drum teacher to refine your technique and get personalized guidance.

My drum teachers knows what a good drummer I was, it gives me a passion of love for music and desire to bring new energies to the table, perfect confidence intelligent personality with sense of finding greatness.

Never lose balance.

this very much like the system I use as well as the one I have my students use...I make up a rubric for them with categories like these on it amd then we fill it out weekly....some things stay the same and some change depending on what time of year it is
 
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