Do you need to be an allround drummer?

RVC said:

Glad someone got the reference!


Mine’s a different situation. I’m usually never called on to play other artists songs like the recording. Most of the time, my duo guy springs a new song on me at the gig, in front of people. Many times it’s a song I’ve never heard before, let alone played before. He’ll give me some generic instruction like, “Play a train beat here.” Or, he’ll mime a beat that I need to interpret on the fly.

As far as simple versus complex playing, the Meg White reference was meant to be humorous but in reality I probably play even simpler parts than she did most of the time. As you said, each of us likes what we like, and over the years I’ve grown to prefer the most basic, elemental grooves possible.

Where someone might use closed hats on verses, open hats on choruses, and ride cymbal in a bridge or solo section (just as one basic example), I’ll often use NO hats on verses, quarter note closed hats on choruses, and eighth note closed hats on bridges or solos. Or sometimes not play cymbals the whole song. I’m talking the kind of stuff we as drummers learn on day one of playing.

I’ve chosen to do that for a number of reasons, but mainly it’s just because I like the way it sounds. I’ve become known for it in my area and get work because of it. Literally anyone else in town could do my gigs, but they refuse to play the way I do. So, I take the gigs because all the songwriters in town love me for it. It’s not for everyone, that’s for sure.

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I guess to me it is because I like big drum kits, 7 piece with 10 or 11 cymbals.
Having that large kit makes me feel that I need to use ALL the parts in a gig. (which I do) but not all in one song, that would sound like utter crap.
I use those things like I use salt in my food (very sparingly), well probably a lot more than salt because to be honest I would make a small salt shaker last years if I was the only one using it, but for drums, just a couple of hits of the 8 inch tom or, one splash here and there, a crash followed by a China in a very fast fashion that blends both in, things like that.
I could use a 4 piece or even a 3 piece with just hats and a crash ride (I played a gig like that and it sounded ok from the audience perspective) but that (even with all my efforts to use dynamics) gets really repetitive (the same crash every few bars and the one tom every few bars.. no not for me.
and I know someone is going to say that a good drummer doesn't need a lot of drums, Even Meg had more drums.

doggyd69b said:

and I know someone is going to say that a good drummer doesn't need a lot of drums, Even Meg had more drums.

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Won’t hear that from me! I’m in full support of large kits - I just don’t use them myself. Great drumming comes on all sizes of kits, in my opinion.

RVC said:

Won’t hear that from me! I’m in full support of large kits - I just don’t use them myself. Great drumming comes on all sizes of kits, in my opinion.

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Nobody would say that Neil Peart used too many drums... Terry Bozio sure but Neil?

doggyd69b said:

You know the saying "you don't have to re-invent the wheel"? No, you don't, you just have to improve it.
I say that to say that I don't take advice as a whole from anybody because there will always be something or some part of it that I don't agree with, but the parts that I do agree and can use, I use, so your concept of taking some little nugget from everyone is great, that has worked for me my whole life.

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I'm glad you and I don't agree on everything, Squidly! As a retired Ground Pounder, I could never float the ocean - above or below the waves.

All military kidding aside - you know that us Grunts love Swabbies - you give us a ride when we need to go someplace far away!

At my age, I've reversed course a little bit - there was a time when I let someone else's opinion in one ear and out the other. I didn't even want to consider it. I'd be polite and everything, but in my own addled brain, another opinion actually was an *insert unmentionable body part* - it didn't just resemble one.

Nowadays, I value other's opinions and really do consider them. (although it would take a lightning strike, a tornado and a tsunami to embrace another opinion as my own. Probably. Well maybe. It could happen. etc...) I've learned that I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed and that I can be just as ignorant/jaded/opinionated/stoopid as the next guy or gal. And I typically am. To my credit, though, I always try to learn something new every day. Something that I can actually use in everyday life. And DrummerWorld and it's members are a veritable fount of learning. I'll admit that every post/poster likely won't impact my future, but I'll consider almost every post and ruminate the "Five W's" so I can better understand the point of view and potential efficacy in my life.

Thanks for your service, @doggyd69b. If I ever need an Uber, you'll be my first choice!

Chris Whitten said:

How long is a piece of string? No one 'needs' to be anything.
I guess I would reframe the question as 'can you improve your core playing by getting out of your comfort zone?' And to that I would say yes, absolutely. Just playing one way, in one genre is kind of lazy IMO.
Another great discipline is learning how to sound the best you can be when playing music you don't like, or don't enjoy playing.
Instead of focussing on 'I don't like this' focus on sounding authentic, with a great groove and appropriate fills on songs you don't like.
It'll feed back into your normal drumming and improve your playing on the songs you DO like.

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Agreed. For me; having to play songs I didn't like, was the best training ever. I rarely got a vote on band song lists. In the last couple bands I was in, I'd say I really only liked about 25% of the songs we did. The rest ranged from indifferent tolerance to outright dislike. Having to play the types of songs I would never listen to during a morning commute forced me to learn and adapt.

For example; I've never been a fan of Blues tunes or real fast beats. Having these on a song list was the best drum instructor, ever. On the flip side, I'm to the point where I don't want to be in a band where I have no vote on the song list and have to play hours of songs I don't like. It was an excellent teacher though. No doubt about that.

there wasn't a serious "all-around drummer" excepting Hollywood and New York TV show drummers like Ed Shaughnessey or Nick Ceroli and they were kind of hidden out of public eye mostly

until Steve Gadd. Born in 45. He perfected it. Chick Corea Lp one month Leo Sayer single the next
around 1976
So if you wanted to make money year round not committing to a band became an all styles type of player.
Believe it's possible just organizing notes- ability to play any and all notes..
It was a jazz thing. Then the Jazz thing discovered the money in pop so the transitioning began.
Steve came from Army and Chuck Mangione bebop. Born into the R&R age.

I get a kick out of him playing "Sunshine Of Your Love" with Eris Clapton
and wonder what travels thru his mind playing that (do I need double bass on this? oh yea got the twin pedal. no silver sparkle needed

doggyd69b said:

Nobody would say that Neil Peart used too many drums... Terry Bozio sure but Neil?

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sadly, a TON of people say that...and in my experiences, they are usually people who:
- don't play drums
- don't know Rush's extended catalog
- generally spew musical myth cliches (like: small kits are for better players; you should only use the E and A string on bass; vocals are the most important part of a song; drums are not a solo instrument; jazz is better/harder than all other genres etc. etc...)

if I had a dime for every time some musician I work with slammed Rush, and prog music in general, I would have my 50 acres of woods and cabin on Lake Huron by now....

only trouble with a lots of drums is potentially 'slows you down "Ok I'll go around here and come up there" "come back down here"..

the "immediacy" gets put off.. Lot of reaching moving distances....
Takes time. Take up time..
Great if it's slow. There's a speed factor re; size of sets..
So

jda said:

only trouble with a lots of drums is potentially 'slows you down "Ok I'll go around here and come up there" "come back down here"..

the "immediacy" gets put off.. Lot of reaching moving distances....
Takes time. Take up time..
Great if it's slow. There's a speed factor re; size of sets..
So

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yeah, in a way it can slow you down, but quite a few guys have mastered getting around all of the drums pretty well. Off the top of my head, I am thinking;

Neil Peart
Dave Lombardo
Charlie Benante

and most of the extreme metal drummers from the past 10 years

for me personally, the mass amount of drums and cymbals are used more for tone and texture possibilities, not bouts of physical "showing off"...and also the need to play multiple styles in one gig. If I am doing a show with 70's -2020's metal songs mixed in it, I need a variety of sounds. Same with a regular rock gig of the same eras. Some times I am going from "CArry On Wayward Son" to "Message In A Bottle" to "Tom Sawyer" to "Heart Breaker" (Pat Benetar version)...

Through my formative years playing live was all typical classic and current rock covers up through college. After college I joined a heavily booked wedding band which lasted the better part of 15-18 years or so.......and while previously I could pull off the basic jazz swing as well as everything required for classic rock from the past 40 years or so there is nothing like a long run with a wedding band to expand your musical palette.

Having a constant stream of Brides/Grooms with their own requests in addition to a deep book of classics as well as various jazz standards required for "cocktail hours" or "pre-reception" background music forced me to learn to play genres I would not normally listen to or want to play. But knowing a wedding typically left me $800-1200 richer was good motivation to learn and expand my toolbox. Funny how money can do that for you.

Now, with a more laid back remote recording thing going on for me, I would say I am more a tasteful and musical "back beat drummer" that can flex styles but if someone brings me an odd time signature progressive piece, I'm fine recommending someone else as that isn't me and I don't feel the need for it to be me. Just like if someone needs brushes on a country style tune or section, sure no problem.....but if you want well recorded jazz brushes, I may not be the guy to efficiently lay that track down to a standard I want to listen to 100+ times.......

So when it comes to versatility there is a lot I "could" do, but could and "should" are 2 different things for me.

Learning all of the styles has definitely served me well, as a professional, especially when playing musicals.

When I was in college, I was a “rock drummer learning jazz.” Learning to play jazz helped me to become a much better rock player. Learning Latin grooves helped me become a better rock, jazz, and funk player. It’s all intertwined. I like being able to draw from a large selection of tools, playing wise. If anything, it just makes my playing more “comfortable” for myself and those around me.

For my own needs, I don't learn various styles for versatility but rather as a way to develop my own sound, so I incorporate certain aspects of styles as needed to that end. It's actually not the particular musical style I'm interested in, it's the mechanics used to play that style.

As a rock drummer I have found that hard rock and metal drumming in particular sound the most interesting to me when I hear noticeable elements from other styles, even when the music itself is purely rock/metal.

bud7h4 said:

For my own needs, I don't learn various styles for versatility but rather as a way to develop my own sound, so I incorporate certain aspects of styles as needed to that end. It's actually not the particular musical style I'm interested in, it's the mechanics used to play that style.

As a rock drummer I have found that hard rock and metal drumming in particular sound the most interesting to me when I hear noticeable elements from other styles, even when the music itself is purely rock/metal.

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Personal Observation Ahead

I feel like this is true 100%, and will put my neck out there and say that metal is probably the genre that has the "least fear" of crossing styles, or incorporating other styles into it's genre. I have a pretty deep knowledge of most genres other than hip hop and non-Western ethnic music, and from what I have learned, heard, and played to in the past 47 years, I feel pretty confident in making that statement.

Probably only in the last 7-10 years have I heard other genres soak in metal elements...though rap/hip hop was first on the ship back in the late 80's thanks to Antrhax, Public Enemy, Run DMC, Onyx, Faith No More etc....

this all being said without going into a multi paragraph long deep dive/study of all genres, which might be for another topic....

Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX said:

Personal Observation Ahead

I feel like this is true 100%, and will put my neck out there and say that metal is probably the genre that has the "least fear" of crossing styles, or incorporating other styles into it's genre. I have a pretty deep knowledge of most genres other than hip hop and non-Western ethnic music, and from what I have learned, heard, and played to in the past 47 years, I feel pretty confident in making that statement.

Probably only in the last 7-10 years have I heard other genres soak in metal elements...though rap/hip hop was first on the ship back in the late 80's thanks to Antrhax, Public Enemy, Run DMC, Onyx, Faith No More etc....

this all being said without going into a multi paragraph long deep dive/study of all genres, which might be for another topic....

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progressive rock and jazz rock/fusion music (including the many othernow recognised sub-genres) were mixing all sorts of influences in its drumming from the late '60s and never stopped.

heavy rock/metal became far too much diminishing returns for me by the mid-80s, so I checked out, but my son's heavily into modern metal and prog-metal, and every so often I'll check out some stuff he's got in rotation, but nothing every grabs me enough to get back into following the styles, though I like some bands here and there. A lot of the playing, no matter the "sub-genre" still sounds quite similar to me in its conventions from the 80s,-90s, only pushed to greater athletic extremes, particularly around the role of double bass. Far too many of the so called prog metal players also seem to have heard very little actual progressive music that isn't metal/heavy rock and Peart related.

Diles Mavis said:

progressive rock and jazz rock/fusion music (including the many othernow recognised sub-genres) were mixing all sorts of influences in its drumming from the late '60s and never stopped.

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true...

Diles Mavis said:

heavy rock/metal became far too much diminishing returns for me by the mid-80s, so I checked out, but my son's heavily into modern metal and prog-metal, and every so often I'll check out some stuff he's got in rotation, but nothing every grabs me enough to get back into following the styles, though I like some bands here and there.
A lot of the playing, no matter the "sub-genre" still sounds quite similar to me in its conventions from the 80s,-90s, only pushed to greater athletic extremes, particularly around the role of double bass.

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I agree that the beats themselves have not changed, but are just faster. And the genres/styles tend to evolve quicker than they used to, and also tend to evolve in quick circles...and the amount of stuff out there is overwhelming thinks to the internet...a much bigger pile to dig through.

BUT, if you have the desire, you can find great stuff out there...but it is usually not in the mainstream/your suggested playlist etc. You do have to dig for it (like in the old days)

Diles Mavis said:

Far too many of the so called prog metal players also seem to have heard very little actual progressive music that isn't metal/heavy rock and Peart related.

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you could say the same thing about any genre...I feel like far too many jazz players have heard actual jazz music that isn't Elvin/Tony Williams/Buddy Rich etc...

does that make all of the music, and all of the drummers less legit?

I think of Tool and Yes as examples. Were Tool doing anything different than Yes were? Not really, but it was in different eras, and mindsets. I think Tool was just as legit as Yes. Were either group groundbreaking? Yes in some ways. No in others. But they were perfect for their situation and the what the music was trying to say

I think in the end, I tend to hope that drummers DON'T live in the mindset that they have to stay in the box that the legends made. Respect the legendary stuff, but don't create your own art with the mindset that you have to be in a certain box...and/or, if you stay in that box, and modify it, as long as it fits the vibe, go for it

if I play the same double bass beat as Tommy Lee did in the 80's, but faster, and kids go crazy in the pit? Success!!!

and i am not tryingto drive you into listenint to stuff you don't want to!! Just putting my thoughts out there

I like a quote from Rufus Jones: "First prove to yourself you are a drummer."

Whatever that means to someone, beyond just "owns some drums, can play a song", is what they should be doing, if it's important to them.

Certainly anyone doing it as a job should be able to do any kind of work, or be very solidly connected within whatever community-- be the go to polka guy in Cleveland or whatever. Caveat that some kinds of music are very specialized and ppl will not be hiring people from the general professional community to do gigs, or shows or whatever they do.

toddbishop said:

I like a quote from Rufus Jones: "First prove to yourself you are a drummer."

Whatever that means to someone, beyond just "owns some drums, can play a song", is what they should be doing, if it's important to them.

Certainly anyone doing it as a job should be able to do any kind of work, or be very solidly connected within whatever community-- be the go to polka guy in Cleveland or whatever. Caveat that some kinds of music are very specialized and ppl will not be hiring people from the general professional community to do gigs, or shows or whatever they do.

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and I would take that one step further and say:"Prove to yourself that you are a professional"....

It sounds like you've joined an established band who have worked up an extensive set list. Obviously some of those songs you won't like and you can be sure your bandmates will feel the same about some of them too. My advice is to play them as best you can anyway; the set isn't about you or what you like - it's about what the crowd want to hear. And there is absolutely no downside to learning a piece of music, ever.

A few months ago, I joined a Dad Rock covers band to help them out with a couple of gigs they had lined up. Billy Joel, Tom Petty sort of stuff. So at the first rehearsal I asked can we work on endings, as all the songs themselves were handy enough for me and I knew them well enough. We went through the set, agreed the endings, perfect. The first gig came along, the singer/guitarist ignores all the agreed endings and takes an age between songs. Next rehearsal we went over the endings again but at the next gig all those agreed endings went out the window. Not only that but the venue wouldn't rebook them because, and I quote 'the singer is too old, the set is too boring and the ladies weren't dancing'. THAT is the very essence of what we do - your job is to keep them dancing. BTW, that singer basically had an existential crisis and has stopped performing. I guess my point is that you need to cover as many bases and styles as possible to stay in some way relevant. It's an awful thing to see a musician have to retire because nobody wants to listen to his boring old shite week in, week out.

eric_B said:

In a follow up to threads about keep on working on / always learning new technique or songs: do you feel the need to be an allround, versatile 'can-play-(almost)-everything' drummer?

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For me, this would be a "yes." If I want to work, then I need to be a versatile player.

eric_B said:

The thought occurred to me after joining a band a couple of months ago and I'm still working on nailing their 60+ list of songs - pop / (classic) rock / some oldies / some Dutch/local songs / so rather varied.
I've played a big part of them before so they are going fine but others require more work and some a lot.

When I learn or play songs for my own entertainment (also tricky ones), I seem to nail those better or want to put more effort into them to get there.
More than the songs on oursetlist I don't like so much or struggle with playing.

So, should I play those 'stubborn' songs or just accept there are songs which just don't fit me and suggest the band to skip or replace those?
It seems a lot of drummers are eager to satisfy the playing wishes of others and want to keep on proving we can play any song...but should we?

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I just assume I don't have a choice. If I have a song that's difficult to play, I just learn it. There's NO WAY I'd suggest skipping a song unless we all just suck at it or we lose half the crowd whenever we play it. If I started the band, then I would make that call, but otherwise I don't have much of an opinion in a band or group. With that said, I've played some really, really stupid songs.

Another example is when I was in a band about 5-6 years ago. They wanted to all play "Everlong." I told them I needed some time to work on it, and maybe I would be better prepared the next practice. First, I think I'm the only person in the world that sort of hates that song. Also, that's a pretty difficult song in terms of stamina, and it's not exactly danceable. So, what did I do? I learned the stupid thing. The band broke up shortly thereafter.

eric_B said:

I guess what also matters is I'm getting older (turning 53 tomorrow) and rather spend my not unlimited playing time on songs I like / like playing than on songs I don't like or take up a lot of my time.
For me drums are a hobby and we just gig occasionally, there is no need to play specific songs.

Any thoughts?

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I'm about the same age as you, and I'm to the point where I just won't play with anyone where I don't love the music. Life is to short to play music you hate. Luckily, music is not my full-time gig, so I have the luxury of doing whatever I want.

Although it isn't necessary, it does help and you really don't want to show up for a gig and discover, publicly, that you're out of your element. The more versatile you are, the more opportunities you get.